https://twitter.com/#!/ap/status/121730495347294208
Yeah...
Rest in peace :(
Short age of 56, but none the less more fulfilling than most who live past 80. Rest in Peace.
I realize this isn't the point of the topic here, but what will happen to Apple?
And he died of cancer, correct?
Jobs already stepped down from his position at Apple, so someone had already filled in. Their success now depends on how well they can manage without him (which wasn't very well last time).
And yes, he died of pancreatic cancer.
man thats just sad to hear. what really makes it worse is that he had been battling the pancreas cancer on and off since 2004. i guess the cancer finally overtook him :(
Oh dear.. I just got off work and all I saw everywhere was "R.I.P Steve Jobs" and I was stunned. I had to check everywhere I could think of before I believed it. A sad day this is.
Yup, it's a sad day, although, it's better he wasn't the CEO when this actually happened I suppose..
Source on apple.com with comment email (http://www.apple.com/stevejobs/)
As the old speech goes, love him or hate him, one thing you can't do is ignore him.
Someone that inspirational, caused so much controversy, has induced so much competition, he can and should go down as one of the most influential pioneers of the 20-21st centuries. I'm interested in seeing where Apple takes themselves in the coming years with this loss. I hope for the best, as Cook has some mighty gimungus shoes to fill. Competition breads excellence, and you Steve Jobs have brought about an era of technology that is a force to be reckoned with. My hat's off to him, my condolences to his family, sleep well Mr. Jobs, your life was one that people today dream of.
Quote from: Scotty on October 05, 2011, 11:52:13 PM
My hat's off to him, my condolences to his family, sleep well Mr. Jobs, your life was one that people today dream of.
Except for his extremely unethical business practices.
Quote from: Yankyal on October 15, 2011, 04:21:23 AM
Quote from: Scotty on October 05, 2011, 11:52:13 PM
My hat's off to him, my condolences to his family, sleep well Mr. Jobs, your life was one that people today dream of.
Except for his extremely unethical business practices.
Such as?
I'm curious as well. But then again, I'm also aware enough to know that almost every single one of people's claims are over-exaggerated, irrelevant, and just them joining on the bandwagon to try and hang out with the "cool kids". Just remember this, if it weren't for Jobs, I guarantee what you use to reply (or not) to this topic would not be like it is today.
I don't think his business practices were extremely unethical, but I do think he was kind of a dick. Not to mention Steve Jobs defended Foxconn despite their abusive factory conditions and whatnot. All in all, not a bad guy, but no saint either.
Steve Jobs, had a max of 100 people on the iPhone project so he made sure he could keep track of everyone's first name [Newsweek magazine September 5, 2011]. Bill Gates yelled at them and made them defend their point against him [Time Magazine, January 13, 1997] . Better boss? I'd go Steve Jobs. He tried to make everything as simple as possible, to where I've seen everyone from a 8 year old to an 80 year old be able to use his product, which is more than I can say for Bill (You know how many damn times I've been called up to help with something that shouldn't even be a problem on a computer?) [Orginal research >.>]. So Steve Jobs=Better Designer. Steve Jobs had to try again and again with his products to barely scrap it with Apple (he was booted out of his own company)[http://www.applematters.com/article/may-24-1989-jobs-fails-to-oust-sculley/]. Bill Gates dominated every market he could with Windows. To the point where he got sued for a monopoly [http://www.wired.com/wired/archive/8.11/microsoft_pr.html]. Steve Jobs may have it where EVERYONE (1 in like 5 people, close enough :P) have/want and iPhone/iPod. This isn't because there is no competition (monopoly), it's because it is just better. Steve Jobs was a good businessman. Being good at business, and running others out of business so you are the only business, are two very different things. So please, I would like to hear the "unethical business practices", because I've heard none, and like knowing stuff about things like this. And please,, use citations ;)
Edited due to Art. I was asking for citations so I had things to look up and read. But I guess ART wanted to read where I got my information from. Also like always, [cite:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Jobs] [citeen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Gates]. Read the citations from there, whats on wikipedia may not be correct, but whats on websites that are cited such as Time, Newsweek, USAtoday, Britannica, etc. tend to be :P
Quote from: sayers6 on October 15, 2011, 09:06:55 PM
And please,, use citations
*looks at op of quoted post*
Quote from: sayers6 on October 15, 2011, 11:03:00 AM
Quote from: Yankyal on October 15, 2011, 04:21:23 AM
Quote from: Scotty on October 05, 2011, 11:52:13 PM
My hat's off to him, my condolences to his family, sleep well Mr. Jobs, your life was one that people today dream of.
Except for his extremely unethical business practices.
Such as?
Wow, where do I begin?
-Exploiting child labor
-Running infested sweatshops in horrible conditions in China
-Pitting his workers against each other and verbally abusing them
-Shut down all philanthropic activities over 10 years ago regardless of the insane amount of profits they make
-REJECTING his own daughter for 2 years(not really business practice, but what the !@#$ man). This was after he abandoned his girlfriend and gave her 0 help regardless of being a millionaire.
-When Jobs was being payed to make a game, he asked for the help of Steve Wozniak, who BUSTED HIS ASS OFF to complete this game. He stayed up for 4 days straight to finish this game.Then Jobs gave him $375 of the share and pocked $5k, without ever telling Wozniak how much he was actually payed to make the game
I don't care how rich he was, or if he's the CEO of a successful company, the man himself was NOT the great person everyone is making him out to be. He did NOT change the world for the better. He was greedy and wasn't above !@#$ing over his own friends, family, and employers.
Wheres is the http://www.thefix.com/content/steve-jobs-think-different-and-lsd-9143 on your list?
I really don't hate Jobs. Just thought it was relevant.
Quote from: Yankyal on October 16, 2011, 02:30:33 PM
Quote from: sayers6 on October 15, 2011, 11:03:00 AM
Quote from: Yankyal on October 15, 2011, 04:21:23 AM
Quote from: Scotty on October 05, 2011, 11:52:13 PM
My hat's off to him, my condolences to his family, sleep well Mr. Jobs, your life was one that people today dream of.
Except for his extremely unethical business practices.
Such as?
Wow, where do I begin?
-Exploiting child labor
-Running infested sweatshops in horrible conditions in China
-Pitting his workers against each other and verbally abusing them
-Shut down all philanthropic activities over 10 years ago regardless of the insane amount of profits they make
-REJECTING his own daughter for 2 years(not really business practice, but what the !@#$ man). This was after he abandoned his girlfriend and gave her 0 help regardless of being a millionaire.
-When Jobs was being payed to make a game, he asked for the help of Steve Wozniak, who BUSTED HIS ASS OFF to complete this game. He stayed up for 4 days straight to finish this game.Then Jobs gave him $375 of the share and pocked $5k, without ever telling Wozniak how much he was actually payed to make the game
I don't care how rich he was, or if he's the CEO of a successful company, the man himself was NOT the great person everyone is making him out to be. He did NOT change the world for the better. He was greedy and wasn't above !@#$ing over his own friends, family, and employers.
Wow your arrogance is astonishing. You do realize of course that Foxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple right? Apple does not own Foxconn. They partner with them. Foxconn runs their own business, Apple runs theirs. As far as his whole controversial Wozniak fit, I call that smarts. Personal life is personal life, who gives a shit, philanthropic well you got us there, oh well.
So let me ask you this, since you've pretty much neglected the whole fact that he is one of the major contributors to the creation of the personal computer that you used to type your message on, where would we be without him? Had the competition he produced between IBM, Microsoft, and all the other big hitters not even started, what would you be doing today? Doubt you'd be Googling places to eat out, or using a smartphone to call someone on.
I refuse to bandwagon onto the apple fanatics side and defend him blindly similar to how you've attacked him blindly, but if I had to take sides, I'd say I'd side with the educated. Being that your remarks are anything but educated, I guess that puts you on the side of the fence with the rest of the flame-inducing idiots who flock together with all the other uneducated cool kids.
Quote from: Scotty on October 16, 2011, 04:30:41 PM
Quote from: Yankyal on October 16, 2011, 02:30:33 PM
Quote from: sayers6 on October 15, 2011, 11:03:00 AM
Quote from: Yankyal on October 15, 2011, 04:21:23 AM
Quote from: Scotty on October 05, 2011, 11:52:13 PM
My hat's off to him, my condolences to his family, sleep well Mr. Jobs, your life was one that people today dream of.
Except for his extremely unethical business practices.
Such as?
Wow, where do I begin?
-Exploiting child labor
-Running infested sweatshops in horrible conditions in China
-Pitting his workers against each other and verbally abusing them
-Shut down all philanthropic activities over 10 years ago regardless of the insane amount of profits they make
-REJECTING his own daughter for 2 years(not really business practice, but what the !@#$ man). This was after he abandoned his girlfriend and gave her 0 help regardless of being a millionaire.
-When Jobs was being payed to make a game, he asked for the help of Steve Wozniak, who BUSTED HIS ASS OFF to complete this game. He stayed up for 4 days straight to finish this game.Then Jobs gave him $375 of the share and pocked $5k, without ever telling Wozniak how much he was actually payed to make the game
I don't care how rich he was, or if he's the CEO of a successful company, the man himself was NOT the great person everyone is making him out to be. He did NOT change the world for the better. He was greedy and wasn't above !@#$ing over his own friends, family, and employers.
Wow your arrogance is astonishing. You do realize of course that Foxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple right? Apple does not own Foxconn. They partner with them. Foxconn runs their own business, Apple runs theirs. As far as his whole controversial Wozniak fit, I call that smarts. Personal life is personal life, who gives a shit, philanthropic well you got us there, oh well.
So let me ask you this, since you've pretty much neglected the whole fact that he is one of the major contributors to the creation of the personal computer that you used to type your message on, where would we be without him? Had the competition he produced between IBM, Microsoft, and all the other big hitters not even started, what would you be doing today? Doubt you'd be Googling places to eat out, or using a smartphone to call someone on.
I refuse to bandwagon onto the apple fanatics side and defend him blindly similar to how you've attacked him blindly, but if I had to take sides, I'd say I'd side with the educated. Being that your remarks are anything but educated, I guess that puts you on the side of the fence with the rest of the flame-inducing idiots who flock together with all the other uneducated cool kids.
All depends on whether you're a believer in the "ends justifying the means". You can't deny his impact on technological society, but likewise, there is heavy indication on his less-than ethical personal and ethical life and what he did.
Just comes down to what you believe is more important, really. Or alternatively, just say RIP and move on. Steve Jobs was not God, afterall. (http://gawker.com/5847338)
I'll be interested to see if this will have any impact on the success of future Apple products. By that I mean genuinely new products, not new versions of existing Apple products.
I personally haven't been impressed with any product Apple has released under Steve Jobs since the iPod so his death isn't such a big deal for me.
Oh lewk, someone important died.
Oh lewk, a heated debate about him.
I am so surprised.
If any of you truly cared about his apparent negative qualities or business practices, I imagine I would have seen a couple more threads about him before he died and inspired media frenzy, eh?
Quote from: Scotty on October 16, 2011, 04:30:41 PM
Wow your arrogance is astonishing. You do realize of course that Foxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple right? Apple does not own Foxconn. They partner with them. Foxconn runs their own business, Apple runs theirs. As far as his whole controversial Wozniak fit, I call that smarts. Personal life is personal life, who gives a shit, philanthropic well you got us there, oh well.
So let me ask you this, since you've pretty much neglected the whole fact that he is one of the major contributors to the creation of the personal computer that you used to type your message on, where would we be without him? Had the competition he produced between IBM, Microsoft, and all the other big hitters not even started, what would you be doing today? Doubt you'd be Googling places to eat out, or using a smartphone to call someone on.
I refuse to bandwagon onto the apple fanatics side and defend him blindly similar to how you've attacked him blindly, but if I had to take sides, I'd say I'd side with the educated. Being that your remarks are anything but educated, I guess that puts you on the side of the fence with the rest of the flame-inducing idiots who flock together with all the other uneducated cool kids.
Foxconn isn't even mentioned in my post...
-The "competition" he made was for DESIGN, the technology for smartphones and googling places to eat was not made or encouraged by Apple. Apple doesn't even deal in geographical technology, it didn't influence google to make google maps the badass tool it is today. Marketing, friendly interfaces, aethscetics, that's what he improved. I'll admit that at least, but for the most part what he was doing was taking already existing technology and making it look pretty for customers.
-What he did to Wozniak is not "smarts", what the hell are you smoking? That's blatant dishonesty. Having your friend bust your ass for you and screwing him over like that, I can't believe you're justifying it like that. And, "who gives a shit"? I'm sure all these people treating him akin to a god would give a shit if they took the time to learn this.
I find it strange that you're saying I'm a flame-inducing idiot. Have I insulted anyone in this thread? Belittled anyone? Purposely tried to anger anyone? No, pointed out his unethical business habits and Sayers asked for examples, so I responded. YOU'RE the one insulting people.
You're sitting here calling me arrogant, uneducated, and idiotic, who is the troll again? Have you ever considered that your angry responses are the reason discussion is so limited on these forums?
Quote from: Yankyal on October 16, 2011, 08:41:15 PM
I find it strange that you're saying I'm a flame-inducing idiot. Have I insulted anyone in this thread? Belittled anyone? Purposely tried to anger anyone? No, pointed out his unethical business habits and Sayers asked for examples, so I responded. YOU'RE the one insulting people.
He's got you there, Scott.
Seriously, why are we even arguing about this? Regardless of what he was or was not, the man DIED. While I don't agree with the god-worship the "Apple Cult" gives him, nor am I a fan of Apple or its business practices at all, I think it's undeniable that he made a significant contribution to computer technology and, at the very least, his early death is a damn shame. No, the man was not a saint, but somehow I doubt anyone in this topic is. He WAS, however, a living breathing human being, and deserves a little respect in his passing.
Quote from: Chaos on October 16, 2011, 08:58:19 PM
Quote from: Yankyal on October 16, 2011, 08:41:15 PM
I find it strange that you're saying I'm a flame-inducing idiot. Have I insulted anyone in this thread? Belittled anyone? Purposely tried to anger anyone? No, pointed out his unethical business habits and Sayers asked for examples, so I responded. YOU'RE the one insulting people.
He's got you there, Scott.
Seriously, why are we even arguing about this? Regardless of what he was or was not, the man DIED. While I don't agree with the god-worship the "Apple Cult" gives him, nor am I a fan of Apple or its business practices at all, I think it's undeniable that he made a significant contribution to computer technology and, at the very least, his early death is a damn shame. No, the man was not a saint, but somehow I doubt anyone in this topic is. He WAS, however, a living breathing human being, and deserves a little respect in his passing.
Case closed.
Quote from: Yankyal on October 16, 2011, 02:30:33 PM
-Pitting his workers against each other and verbally abusing them
-When Jobs was being payed to make a game, he asked for the help of Steve Wozniak, who BUSTED HIS ASS OFF to complete this game. He stayed up for 4 days straight to finish this game.Then Jobs gave him $375 of the share and pocked $5k, without ever telling Wozniak how much he was actually payed to make the game
If I tell you that I'll pay you $375 for a game from the start, and you manage to make the game, guess how much I'm going to pay you? $375. Just because Jobs got paid what the business said they'd pay him, and it was more than what Wozniak was promised, doesn't make their contract different. Pitting workers against each other? From what I've read in Newsweek, he did so in a way that it wasn't making one team of workers hate another, it was making them compete....Which leads to better products....On the note of "verbally abusing them" I haven't been able to find anything on that.
On the rest of the things you listed, they don't really involve business.
Oh and philanthropic donations? Heard of Product Red? Apple is the biggest participant in it, thanks to Jobs. Just because he himself didn't, doesn't mean his company didn't.
Quote from: sayers6 on October 17, 2011, 11:34:55 PM
If I tell you that I'll pay you $375 for a game from the start, and you manage to make the game, guess how much I'm going to pay you? $375. Just because Jobs got paid what the business said they'd pay him, and it was more than what Wozniak was promised, doesn't make their contract different. Pitting workers against each other? From what I've read in Newsweek, he did so in a way that it wasn't making one team of workers hate another, it was making them compete....Which leads to better products....On the note of "verbally abusing them" I haven't been able to find anything on that.
On the rest of the things you listed, they don't really involve business.
Oh and philanthropic donations? Heard of Product Red? Apple is the biggest participant in it, thanks to Jobs. Just because he himself didn't, doesn't mean his company didn't.
Quote from: sayers6 on October 17, 2011, 11:34:55 PM
If I tell you that I'll pay you $375 for a game from the start, and you manage to make the game, guess how much I'm going to pay you? $375. Just because Jobs got paid what the business said they'd pay him, and it was more than what Wozniak was promised, doesn't make their contract different. Pitting workers against each other? From what I've read in Newsweek, he did so in a way that it wasn't making one team of workers hate another, it was making them compete....Which leads to better products....On the note of "verbally abusing them" I haven't been able to find anything on that.
On the rest of the things you listed, they don't really involve business.
Oh and philanthropic donations? Heard of Product Red? Apple is the biggest participant in it, thanks to Jobs. Just because he himself didn't, doesn't mean his company didn't.
Product Red isn't even a fraction of what they could easily be donating, it's pretty much meaningless compared to what other companies as successful as Apple do. They made over 60 billion dollars last year in revenue.
Also, abusing the shitty child labor laws and running sweatshops in China to make products at a tenth of what he sold them for in the States, how is that not involving business? If anything this was the most !@#$ed up thing Jobs did.
ALSO, he didn't just say "here's $375, can you make this game?", he told Wozniak he was being payed $750 to make a game and that they should split the profits and the work. Then he got payed a $5000 bonus, and kept it secret from Wozniak.
As for the work abuse, he's known for getting pissed off and screaming at employees. He'd get in elevators, and fire employees there, and say "just kidding". He regularly berated employees until they were in tears and then fired them. How else would he win the Bully Bosses Award? (http://www.forbes.com/2009/01/27/bully-bosses-ceos-business-power08_0127_bullies_slide_5.html)
Sure he deserves his respects for being a good CEO, but not for being a good person.
Quote from: Yankyal on October 18, 2011, 07:02:49 PM
Also, abusing the shitty child labor laws and running sweatshops in China to make products at a tenth of what he sold them for in the States, how is that not involving business? If anything this was the most !@#$ed up thing Jobs did.
Foxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.
On the $375 Wozniak was paid....He continued to work with Jobs and made no complaint of what happened from what I can tell, so no harm, no foul. Also Jobs was "being paid $750 for making the game" you can't say he wasn't. Go read up on it. If he made the game and gave it to them, he would be paid $750, no more no less. Now
if the chips were less than the amount that the Atari design had he would be paid $500 per chip. Technically $750 was the only guaranteed amount of money. No matter what, I consider that him being a good businessman. Plus, what person
hasn't made money due to your friends' stupidity at least once? The friend gets over it and laughs.
Thank you for the little excerpt on Job's work environment, I'll give you credit for that. The fact that even those that didn't work for him still praised him as their favorite boss, still says there was something good about it all. But points for you, you win that one.
QuoteFoxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.
Apple is not Foxconn but they still do business with them knowing what they are. I mean do you feel safe doing business with some one that you may not agree with what they are doing?
Quote from: ARTgames on October 19, 2011, 12:13:40 AM
QuoteFoxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.
Apple is not Foxconn but they still do business with them knowing what they are. I mean do you feel safe doing business with some one that you may not agree with what they are doing?
And you still shop in.. Wal-Mart? Target? West49? You are officially no different than Steve Jobs by your logic. Nor is any other person who buys from big corporations. Rubbermaid, Microsoft, Sony. Your cell phone, laptop, watch? It was made by child labor or a piece of it by the practice. Your clothes? You guessed it. So take your "ethics" argument and shove it somewhere else.
Quote from: T-Rok on October 19, 2011, 12:34:58 AM
Quote from: ARTgames on October 19, 2011, 12:13:40 AM
QuoteFoxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.
Apple is not Foxconn but they still do business with them knowing what they are. I mean do you feel safe doing business with some one that you may not agree with what they are doing?
And you still shop in.. Wal-Mart? Target? West49? You are officially no different than Steve Jobs by your logic. Nor is any other person who buys from big corporations. Rubbermaid, Microsoft, Sony. Your cell phone, laptop, watch? It was made by child labor or a piece of it by the practice. Your clothes? You guessed it. So take your "ethics" argument and shove it somewhere else.
That's pretty hostile, T-Rok, and also full of assumptions about ARTGames. Don't be so hasty. >.>
Yes, by supporting companies like that, you are indirectly supporting the horrible work conditions and what not that the people who make your consumer lifestyle items have to live with. Doesn't mean you can't call other people out on it as well - especially when they are the ones who have direct influence and control over the working conditions, much more so than I do as an individual consumer. His argument is very valid.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on October 19, 2011, 12:51:53 AM
His argument is very valid.
But so is T-Rok's argument. He who is without sin cast the first stone.
Quote from: Jake on October 19, 2011, 02:42:33 AM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on October 19, 2011, 12:51:53 AM
His argument is very valid.
But so is T-Rok's argument. He who is without sin cast the first stone.
Yeah, no doubt. It's really a difference in opinion and moral views. Some would argue that if you aren't doing everything you can, then you don't fully support your cause (in this case, buying from corporations who's business practices you oppose, instead of creating your own goods); others would say the ends justify the means (buying to survive, but still fight the way things are handled by the corporations that produce what you are buying).
I think we have mixed standers in are society. We are not allowed to speak about something we do are self's if its a bad thing. But also we cant speak about something we have never done before weather it be bad or good. :/ I think that's just a scape goat to the whole situation. And my response to that is it does not matter the state of the criticizer if the subject matter he speaks of is true even if it applies to the originator of the comment the statement is still true. (But if it is true is up to the judgment of the peers, different topic so I will just move on) And I feel that he should still have the right to speak there mind. But this really is a different subject.
Quote from: T-Rok on October 19, 2011, 12:34:58 AM
Quote from: ARTgames on October 19, 2011, 12:13:40 AM
QuoteFoxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.
Apple is not Foxconn but they still do business with them knowing what they are. I mean do you feel safe doing business with some one that you may not agree with what they are doing?
And you still shop in.. Wal-Mart? Target? West49? You are officially no different than Steve Jobs by your logic. Nor is any other person who buys from big corporations. Rubbermaid, Microsoft, Sony. Your cell phone, laptop, watch? It was made by child labor or a piece of it by the practice. Your clothes? You guessed it. So take your "ethics" argument and shove it somewhere else.
Lol man no need for a personal fight. Just a discussion here. Battle the topic not the person. I did not write my post going "man im going to trash t-rock here". :P I just have the intentions to study the subject. And I am sorry if I came across that way man. That would be my bad.
Anyway I carefully (or tried to) word my post.
QuoteYou are officially no different than Steve Jobs by your logic
I never said Apple was Foxconn. I specifically stated they are two different entities. I also never gave you my "logic" on the matter. More on that in next part.
QuoteYou guessed it. So take your "ethics" argument and shove it somewhere else.
I never gave my position on how I feel about Apple doing this. I asked you about it and you assumed the rest about how I felt. All I did was affirmed that they are two different entities. One does business with the other and they both know there practices. And then I asked the poster (you in this case) how you feel about that. And I would like that answer to that. How do you feel doing business with some one if you know what they do is something that you do not agree (or agree) with? Now I know that may be too general and depends on the act of the other party. So give examples of when you would/wouldn't or if you would at all.
But I will tell you how I feel (my "logic"):
I never said this but I will state now that I feel the two do not share the same notion of the situation that the other one is committing. As in just because one is doing something good or bad does not mean that the other party doing business with them is just as good or bad depending on the situation. And in this situation between Apple and foxcon I do not feel that one is just as bad or as good as the other just because they do business. But I do feel that some of the good/bad does carry across.
Now how much I think good or bad Apple should get for working with foxcon im not too sure of. I don't know really how bad it is in foxcon and how Apple does business with them. And even if i did it would still only be my personal judgement.
Quote from: Jake on October 19, 2011, 02:42:33 AM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on October 19, 2011, 12:51:53 AM
His argument is very valid.
But so is T-Rok's argument. He who is without sin cast the first stone.
Supporting a corporation monetarily has nothing to do with supporting their conditions, be they horrific or not. If that was the case, anyone who has ever bought a product from a corporation with some degree of bad practices would be subject to the same treatment(regardless of degree of said treatment based on duration of consummation of the products).
It's not like the bad practices are directly necessary to continue the level of availability, 'cheapness', and quality of the products. Nor is it that ARTgames LET those bad practices occur, as Steve Jobs is responsible, be it directly or indirectly, for what his company does. Pretty much EVERY big corporation today has some immoral (and potentially borderline illegal, if not flat-out) thing going on behind the scenes.
I can very easily argue that there's essentially nothing that can be done to deter these practices as a consumer directly. As you are only one person and you likely can't get a large enough group of people to boycott/protest these issues and have a big enough effect(and I protest whenever I see something worth protesting about)for it to be attributed to you, and if you can't do that, you're as guilty as the one whose responsibility it is to regulate this in the first place? Nigh nobody has the means to produce everything needed to make a reasonable living today completely by themselves.
You might ask then why I don't just become a hermit and live out the rest of my days doing nothing and living off the land. That's because I don't have the means to do that either, and I also don't have the necessary skills to live truly like that(absolutely NOTHING manufactured or man-made, just by myself).
Am I(or any other person) the bad guy for trying to survive and improve things in an extremely imbalanced capitalistic society? If my family had the money, we would move out of the country. But we can't.
Heck, if at all possible, I would prefer to not be alive right now with my death having little to no negative impact. I've been actively contemplating suicide for a couple of years and it's gotten extremely 'serious' recently to those who classify it as something that should never occur.
Dude... You doin' alright? That has to be one of the most pessimistic posts I think I've read on these forums. If it's a plea for help, then by all means, PM me.
Yeah seriously man... Everyone's got reasons to live... Try and talk about your problems or something...it helps....It really does...
Quote from: sayers6 on October 18, 2011, 11:25:56 PM
Quote from: Yankyal on October 18, 2011, 07:02:49 PM
Also, abusing the shitty child labor laws and running sweatshops in China to make products at a tenth of what he sold them for in the States, how is that not involving business? If anything this was the most !@#$ed up thing Jobs did.
Foxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.
On the $375 Wozniak was paid....He continued to work with Jobs and made no complaint of what happened from what I can tell, so no harm, no foul. Also Jobs was "being paid $750 for making the game" you can't say he wasn't. Go read up on it. If he made the game and gave it to them, he would be paid $750, no more no less. Now if the chips were less than the amount that the Atari design had he would be paid $500 per chip. Technically $750 was the only guaranteed amount of money. No matter what, I consider that him being a good businessman. Plus, what person hasn't made money due to your friends' stupidity at least once? The friend gets over it and laughs.
Thank you for the little excerpt on Job's work environment, I'll give you credit for that. The fact that even those that didn't work for him still praised him as their favorite boss, still says there was something good about it all. But points for you, you win that one.
So that's what he was talking about? Apple's company itself reports that Foxconn had employed children to work at the factories, and also that workers were being poisoned during production. I guess I have to give them props for at least checking and promising to do something about it, unlike a lot of others companies.
As for the Wozniak thing, it's because Steve Wozniak is a !@#$ing king, and the best friend ever. He's also a millionaire now, which he might not be if he had told Jobs to !@#$ off after finding out about his little business deal. Still, it's a really !@#$ed up thing to do to a friend who worked so hard to make the game.
I 100% agree he was a good businessman, great even. It takes huge balls to run a company like Apple, to look at 10 products that look exactly alike and choosing the best one, etc. But it got a little out of hand when he died and people were randomly insulting Bill Gates just for owning a rival company, worshiping him like some kind of cult god, and other fanboyish antics.
Alrighty, I'll say a couple of things regarding what I said. I really didn't mean to depress anyone.
First off, I am not in 'danger' whatsoever, I am just going through a particularly hard time right now(due to some reallyyyyy convoluted personal things and events) and it's permeating every aspect of my life, including 'online' life which I try to partition whenever it's convenient and worth it to do so.
Secondly, I'm really touched by you guys for being so caring of what you may have percieved as imminent danger. :)
And lastly, I assure you that the circumstances that would bring out suicide are both inherently depressing and relatively unlikely(as well as not trivial in the slightest, on the contrary), and if that came to sadly pass, I would only be in 'danger' at the end of this school year.
That was just to clear up some things which I couldn't leave unresolved in good conscience.
Now I'll stop being off-topic and talk about logical fallacies and assumptions I see here. I've made my point with a sledgehammer.
Quote from: sayers6Plus, what person hasn't made money due to your friends' stupidity at least once? The friend gets over it and laughs.
I haven't. I've had people try to do so to me who I know well enough so that I could tell they weren't doing it in spite, deceit or maliciousness, but they failed. I find it to be generally a crude thing to do even though most of the time it's done in good faith.
Quote from: Yankyal
So that's what he was talking about? Apple's company itself reports that Foxconn had employed children to work at the factories, and also that workers were being poisoned during production. I guess I have to give them props for at least checking and promising to do something about it, unlike a lot of others companies.
I honestly thought that at least a good >90% of well-established companies checked up on that. Or am I mistaken?
A lot of companies don't really seem to keep up with it. My tuxedo is made in The Dominican Republic, my shirts are made in Haiti, and all my electronics, for the most part, were made in China. I hate to say it, but somewhere along the line 90% of it was probably made through child labor/under-minimum-wage work. It's sad but it's true. If they stopped doing it though, regardless of what anyone says, prices would go through the roof in everything.
Quote from: sayers6 on October 20, 2011, 07:01:04 PM
A lot of companies don't really seem to keep up with it. My tuxedo is made in The Dominican Republic, my shirts are made in Haiti, and all my electronics, for the most part, were made in China. I hate to say it, but somewhere along the line 90% of it was probably made through child labor/under-minimum-wage work. It's sad but it's true. If they stopped doing it though, regardless of what anyone says, prices would go through the roof in everything.
It's a really !@#$ed up situation. Either the workers suffer low wages and bad conditions, or the consumers suffer very expensive products. Corporations sure as hell aren't going go down the moral path at the cost of revenue, and I don't see China buckling down on its labor laws any time soon...
The only good thing is, at least these people have jobs, and aren't penniless like some, but the situation could be much better.