Steve Jobs's death

[Jake]

His argument is very valid.

But so is T-Rok's argument. He who is without sin cast the first stone.

[Cactuscat222]

His argument is very valid.

But so is T-Rok's argument. He who is without sin cast the first stone.

Yeah, no doubt. It's really a difference in opinion and moral views. Some would argue that if you aren't doing everything you can, then you don't fully support your cause (in this case, buying from corporations who's business practices you oppose, instead of creating your own goods); others would say the ends justify the means (buying to survive, but still fight the way things are handled by the corporations that produce what you are buying).

[ARTgames]

I think we have mixed standers in are society.  We are not allowed to speak about something we do are self's if its a bad thing.  But also we cant speak about something we have never done before weather it be bad or good. :/ I think that's just a scape goat to the whole situation. And my response to that is it does not matter the state of the criticizer if the subject matter he speaks of is true even if it applies to the originator of the comment the statement is still true. (But if it is true is up to the judgment of the peers, different topic so I will just move on) And I feel that he should still have the right to speak there mind. But this really is a different subject.

Foxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.

Apple is not Foxconn but they still do business with them knowing what they are. I mean do you feel safe doing business with some one that you may not agree with what they are doing?

And you still shop in.. Wal-Mart? Target? West49? You are officially no different than Steve Jobs by your logic. Nor is any other person who buys from big corporations. Rubbermaid, Microsoft, Sony. Your cell phone, laptop, watch? It was made by child labor or a piece of it by the practice. Your clothes? You guessed it. So take your "ethics" argument and shove it somewhere else.

Lol man no need for a personal fight. Just a discussion here. Battle the topic not the person. I did not write my post going "man im going to trash t-rock here". :P I just have the intentions to study the subject. And I am sorry if I came across that way man. That would be my bad.

Anyway I carefully (or tried to) word my post.

You are officially no different than Steve Jobs by your logic

I never said Apple was Foxconn. I specifically stated they are two different entities. I also never gave you my "logic" on the matter. More on that in next part.

You guessed it. So take your "ethics" argument and shove it somewhere else.

I never gave my position on how I feel about Apple doing this. I asked you about it and you assumed the rest about how I felt. All I did was affirmed that they are two different entities. One does business with the other and they both know there practices. And then I asked the poster (you in this case) how you feel about that. And I would like that answer to that. How do you feel doing business with some one if you know what they do is something that you do not agree (or agree) with? Now I know that may be too general and depends on the act of the other party. So give examples of when you would/wouldn't or if you would at all.

But I will tell you how I feel (my "logic"):
I never said this but I will state now that I feel the two do not share the same notion of the situation that the other one is committing. As in just because one is doing something good or bad does not mean that the other party doing business with them is just as good or bad depending on the situation. And in this situation between Apple and foxcon I do not feel that one is just as bad or as good as the other just because they do business. But I do feel that some of the good/bad does carry across.

Now how much I think good or bad Apple should get for working with foxcon im not too sure of. I don't know really how bad it is in foxcon and how Apple does business with them. And even if i did it would still only be my personal judgement.

[Mystery]

His argument is very valid.

But so is T-Rok's argument. He who is without sin cast the first stone.

Supporting a corporation monetarily has nothing to do with supporting their conditions, be they horrific or not. If that was the case, anyone who has ever bought a product from a corporation with some degree of bad practices would be subject to the same treatment(regardless of degree of said treatment based on duration of consummation of the products).

It's not like the bad practices are directly necessary to continue the level of availability, 'cheapness', and quality of the products. Nor is it that ARTgames LET those bad practices occur, as Steve Jobs is responsible, be it directly or indirectly, for what his company does. Pretty much EVERY big corporation today has some immoral (and potentially borderline illegal, if not flat-out) thing going on behind the scenes.

I can very easily argue that there's essentially nothing that can be done to deter these practices as a consumer directly. As you are only one person and you likely can't get a large enough group of people to boycott/protest these issues and have a big enough effect(and I protest whenever I see something worth protesting about)for it to be attributed to you, and if you can't do that, you're as guilty as the one whose responsibility it is to regulate this in the first place? Nigh nobody has the means to produce everything needed to make a reasonable living today completely by themselves.

You might ask then why I don't just become a hermit and live out the rest of my days doing nothing and living off the land. That's because I don't have the means to do that either, and I also don't have the necessary skills to live truly like that(absolutely NOTHING manufactured or man-made, just by myself).

Am I(or any other person) the bad guy for trying to survive and improve things in an extremely imbalanced capitalistic society? If my family had the money, we would move out of the country. But we can't.

Heck, if at all possible, I would prefer to not be alive right now with my death having little to no negative impact. I've been actively contemplating suicide for a couple of years and it's gotten extremely 'serious' recently to those who classify it as something that should never occur.

[Scotty]

Dude... You doin' alright?  That has to be one of the most pessimistic posts I think I've read on these forums.  If it's a plea for help, then by all means, PM me. 

[sayers6]

Yeah seriously man... Everyone's got reasons to live... Try and talk about your problems or something...it helps....It really does...

[Yankyal]

Also, abusing the shitty child labor laws and running sweatshops in China to make products at a tenth of what he sold them for in the States, how is that not involving business? If anything this was the most !@#$ed up thing Jobs did.

Foxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.

On the $375 Wozniak was paid....He continued to work with Jobs and made no complaint of what happened from what I can tell, so no harm, no foul. Also Jobs was "being paid $750 for making the game" you can't say he wasn't. Go read up on it. If he made the game and gave it to them, he would be paid $750, no more no less. Now if the chips were less than the amount that the Atari design had he would be paid $500 per chip. Technically $750 was the only guaranteed amount of money. No matter what, I consider that him being a good businessman. Plus, what person hasn't made money due to your friends' stupidity at least once? The friend gets over it and laughs.

Thank you for the little excerpt on Job's work environment, I'll give you credit for that. The fact that even those that didn't work for him still praised him as their favorite boss, still says there was something good about it all. But points for you, you win that one.

So that's what he was talking about? Apple's company itself reports that Foxconn had employed children to work at the factories, and also that workers were being poisoned during production. I guess I have to give them props for at least checking and promising to do something about it, unlike a lot of others companies.

As for the Wozniak thing, it's because Steve Wozniak is a !@#$ing king, and the best friend ever. He's also a millionaire now, which he might not be if he had told Jobs to !@#$ off after finding out about his little business deal. Still, it's a really !@#$ed up thing to do to a friend who worked so hard to make the game.

I 100% agree he was a good businessman, great even. It takes huge balls to run a company like Apple, to look at 10 products that look exactly alike and choosing the best one, etc. But it got a little out of hand when he died and people were randomly insulting Bill Gates just for owning a rival company, worshiping him like some kind of cult god, and other fanboyish antics.

[Mystery]

Alrighty, I'll say a couple of things regarding what I said. I really didn't mean to depress anyone.

First off, I am not in 'danger' whatsoever, I am just going through a particularly hard time right now(due to some reallyyyyy convoluted personal things and events) and it's permeating every aspect of my life, including 'online' life which I try to partition whenever it's convenient and worth it to do so.

Secondly, I'm really touched by you guys for being so caring of what you may have percieved as imminent danger.  :)

And lastly, I assure you that the circumstances that would bring out suicide are both inherently depressing and relatively unlikely(as well as not trivial in the slightest, on the contrary), and if that came to sadly pass, I would only be in 'danger' at the end of this school year.

That was just to clear up some things which I couldn't leave unresolved in good conscience.

Now I'll stop being off-topic and talk about logical fallacies and assumptions I see here. I've made my point with a sledgehammer.

Plus, what person hasn't made money due to your friends' stupidity at least once? The friend gets over it and laughs.

I haven't. I've had people try to do so to me who I know well enough so that I could tell they weren't doing it in spite, deceit or maliciousness, but they failed. I find it to be generally a crude thing to do even though most of the time it's done in good faith.

So that's what he was talking about? Apple's company itself reports that Foxconn had employed children to work at the factories, and also that workers were being poisoned during production. I guess I have to give them props for at least checking and promising to do something about it, unlike a lot of others companies.

I honestly thought that at least a good >90% of well-established companies checked up on that. Or am I mistaken?

[sayers6]

A lot of companies don't really seem to keep up with it. My tuxedo is made in The Dominican Republic, my shirts are made in Haiti, and all my electronics, for the most part, were made in China. I hate to say it, but somewhere along the line 90% of it was probably made through child labor/under-minimum-wage work. It's sad but it's true. If they stopped doing it though, regardless of what anyone says, prices would go through the roof in everything.

[Yankyal]

A lot of companies don't really seem to keep up with it. My tuxedo is made in The Dominican Republic, my shirts are made in Haiti, and all my electronics, for the most part, were made in China. I hate to say it, but somewhere along the line 90% of it was probably made through child labor/under-minimum-wage work. It's sad but it's true. If they stopped doing it though, regardless of what anyone says, prices would go through the roof in everything.

It's a really !@#$ed up situation. Either the workers suffer low wages and bad conditions, or the consumers suffer very expensive products. Corporations sure as hell aren't going go down the moral path at the cost of revenue, and I don't see China buckling down on its labor laws any time soon...

[sayers6]

The only good thing is, at least these people have jobs, and aren't penniless like some, but the situation could be much better.