Alright, so I know I got some hopes up before when I mentioned that I expressed interest in redoing the Stick Online PvP League, and then I let all ya down when i randomly abandoned the project. Truth is it came at an awkward time for me with migrating out of the Corps and looking for work, so I think it's somewhat understandable.
So now the thing is, we have a clan system coming around the corner soon, and I can see there being a lot of renewed interest with the game due to it. I think that's great, and look forward to it just as much as everyone else. What I think would supplement that greatness even more is if we had a PvP League that we could use to track PvP events. Obviously, that's where this PvP League comes into play. I think it would be an invaluable asset to have, and would easily migrate to future versions of the game, as it is completely independent (and unofficial) to the game. The thing is, I'm a developer, I think about constructs, and coding, I don't do well when it comes to "How should the users report the win/loss" or "How should we organize tournaments", I just let my fingers go to work, and magic happens, so that is why I am posting this topic, as I want to get a collective brainstorming going on, so that I can start to re-develop a white-paper outlining the concepts of how the PvP League would work. I know we have a lot of invaluable and logical think-tanks in the community (*cough*Lingus*cough*), and I think it would be better to get the entire community involved, so that I can concentrate more on developing, and less on brain-storming.
So without further ado, this is what I'm thinking of thus far, please elaborate, expand, critique, and offer as much advice as you would be willing to part with in order to help me out:
Types of events:
- 1 vs 1 ladder
- 3 vs 3 ladder
- Clan matches
- Tournaments
The site will be authentication based, users specifying their game name(s?). I'm thinking that since the GM population is so slow, what I'll likely end up doing is either generating their accounts for them, or emailing them, confirming that they signed up for the league before their account is activated.
As far as reporting wins and losses, this is how I see it being done:
All users involved report whether they won or lost in the 1vs1 and 3vs3. The Clan matches will probably have one rep from each clan that will report, and the tournaments are a whole different beast. Likely the host of the tourney will report it. If, for the 1vs1 and 3vs3, there is a conflict in reporting (aka someone's lying), then that is where I need some help on how to handle that sort of situation.
I'll get to tournaments more after we work out the details for the first 3.
DISCUSS!
EDIT: I MAY BE DOUBLE POSTING AS STUFF COMES TO MIND. EAT PLATYPUS POO IF THIS ANNOYS YOU.
I like it alot. Having a pvp league along with the clan update brings fun into SO again!
As for some ideas.. Well, all you listed is well thought through, right now I can't think of anything I could share.. so I'll post if something good comes to my mind.
Sounds great...I'm glad to see everything coming together again.
I think the ladder system you currently have sounds great. An addition might be that you have the ability to choose a location to fight...in case people want non-arena based matches. Also you could throw in Hat/Weapon limitations. Things of that nature. Also, I think if it weren't too much trouble for you...there should be some sort of Teamspeak/Ventrillo for Stick Online and have channels with the various clans all pass worded to the clans desires and have a general lobby...that would be sweet in companion with this new brought up pvp league.
First off, I'd like to take a second and say I love you, and would suckle your meat sandwich any day. My only opinion so far would be on Tournaments. It would be beyond awesome to be able to use the website as an all-purpose tool for Tournament hosting. Having the ability to show the tournament information, set up brackets, etc, all on one website, would make organizing a tournament a billion times easier.
As for the 1v1 and 3v3 lying problem, I imagine there should be some kind of discipline. For more than 1v1s, the majority of the votes should be the deciding factor in who wins, but obviously that can't be done for 1v1s, and an entire team could still of course lie. I dunno.
@MrPwnage, There is already a Stick Online Teamspeak up, payed for by Scotty. I like the clan channels and such, that's an interesting idea.
One thing that came to mind as I was thinking about TeamSpeak, is that I believe (I say this because I haven't yet installed a server on my linux box... yet) that it either has an API or an actual database that I would be able to connect to on the site to give me some wicked cool functionality, like displaying the TeamSpeak chat on the PvP League, show who's online, what channels they're in, etc, I may even be able to have the chat synchronous between the site and TeamSpeak, so that if someone chats on the website, it'll appear to the users on Teamspeak, and vice versa. Something to look into, although to be honest, that kind of in-depth development will likely come last.
Sounds great.
I'm quite excited for the returning of the clan system. The Stick Online PvP League is great fun and competition and will bring in more players.
So as far as punishing inaccurate reporting, this is what I can think of thus far, feel free to critique. First off, an option will be available to allow for GMs to attend matches to moderate. All that'll consist of is a check box alongside the match that only mods will see that allows them to check whether or not they'll attend as a moderator, and if so, the two (in a 1vs1 fight) will still submit their wins/losses, but ultimately, the mod's decision will rule all in the event there is a conflict.
If there is no GM available, then this is where it gets sticky. What I imagine happening is that if there is a conflict in reporting, the match will have up to a 3 day waiting period. In this time, both members will be emailed and told that there is conflict in reporting. They will have to go back and re-submit their win or loss. If there is another error, then rinse repeat for three days. If at the three day mark, there is still a conflict, then both members will be docked a certain amount of points as a penalty, and have an alert be attached to their account for public viewing when determining future matches. If a user reaches a certain amount of alerts, they are removed from the PvP League, marked as such. This will give other users a chance to see who has had faulty reporting, and pretty quickly, those who lie will likely outnumber in negative reports than those who don't. Plus, it might flag a GM or two to go "investigate" using their "mod powers" to determine in a future fight if someone is lying.
How does that sound?
Sounds fine to me. But 3 days seems like quite a long time, maybe shortening it?
Yeah, I was thinking about that, maybe give them 24 hours?
EDIT: Also, being that I believe in forgiveness of the stupid people (in due time, sometimes), maybe have it filter out all bad marks that are over a certain amount of time old. So some shmuck learns his lesson, and turns out to be an honest person in the future, won't have bad marks from a year ago carry over? What would be a good threshold for that?
EDIT 2: Also, in the event one doesn't report (either from the get go or if there's a conflict, and he doesn't re-report), maybe dock that person double points?
Well, an issue with that system is if there is conflicting reports that might mean despite one person being filthy...one is being honest. I am not too sure on a solution for such scenarios...but I don't think both of them should be docked points because it is likely that one player is in fact doing it correctly, and shouldn't have to lose points at the sake of another.
I agree, but as you said, I have no other ideas. Sure, one user may get dicked because of another's negligence, but those who have a tendency of being dishonest will stand out more. Plus, GMs will be able to moderate matches while using their GM powers, so if they notice someone is being dishonest, they will have the ability to put a stop to it (i.e. removing them from the league). If anyone has any other better ideas, please speak up!
I'm also thinking that a select staffing for the PvP league might be in order to help alleviate some of the GMs from feeling overwhelmed with the amount of activity that might occur. I'm thinking maybe 5 or so users that I know personally who I think would be a good fit for the job would be invaluable. They would essentially have the same amount of authority with the PvP League as GMs would have, only GMs will also have the added bonus of being GMs in the game.
Maybe add a comment system to the challenges so people near the match can post who they saw won, which could decide the unreported match?
Quote from: Pinball on July 11, 2010, 11:31:43 AM
Maybe add a comment system to the challenges so people near the match can post who they saw won, which could decide the unreported match?
I thought about user-submitted comments as a sort of work around, but the problem is that, once again, it's not fool proof. I don't think I would use it as a definitive way to iron out false reports. Maybe I'll have an option when commenting for users to select who they saw won, and that'll add a sort of sub-rep-points or something, so that when other users see that they may be fighting someone with negative marks on their record, they can also see their rep-points to determine whether or not there is a possibility for false-positives. Kinda do a sort of ratio calculation to determine the likelihood of whether or not they lied in the report.
Also, when it comes time to kick someone for too many false reports, I'm thinking that this will get submitted for league staff/GM approval, and they will ultimately determine whether or not a user is banned from the league. What I can do is have a player's name displayed, their wins/losses, points gained, negative marks, rep marks, and a ratio to help determine whether or not a person needs to get the boot. I don't think I should automate that. Also, I'm thinking that when a user is removed from the league, maybe instead of banning them, maybe throw in a certain amount of time that they aren't allowed to use the league, like a month or two.
I'm thinking a 60-day retention period for bad marks is sufficient. I think that after that 60 day mark, their bad marks are retained for reference by the select league staff as well as the GMs if they want to see them, but public display of them is gone.
UPDATE:
I'm posting these to keep my honest and make sure that the community knows where I'm at, and where I expect to be with tentative deadlines and such.
As of right now, the initial account system is in place. Registration, logins, updating account information, etc... What I think will work best is to have a central login account, then allow users to create and update separate game accounts. I'm affording the opportunity to allow users to specify their account's level. It will be made clear that this is subject to dishonest reporting (which will be punished with a ban if clear negligence in reporting occurs).
After the game account system is in place, I will move on to 1 vs 1 ladders. I hope to have something to show for by the end of the week before I take off to West Virginia, just don't hold me to it!
EDIT: For the game accounts, I would also like to allow for users to submit their inventories so that if there is ever an equipment based competition, I can easily show whether users are qualified or disqualified based on their equipment. In order to do that, can I ask for assistance with a list of equipment added to the game, split up by hat/weapon? I am not sure how I am going to do tournament crowns yet, but that'll come to me when I actually start doing this.
Tell me if I forgot anything, I'll edit the list. I don't know the exact names of all the crowns and special weapons.
Red Bandana
Yellow Bandana
Blue Bandana
Green Bandana
Fireman Hat
Shady Hat
Jester Hat
Feather Hat
Ninja Mask
Bandit Mask
Bandit Cover
Bunny Ears
Deranged Bunny Ears
Black Bunny Ears
Viking Helmet
Knight Helmet
Dark Knight Helmet
Skull Mask
Top Hat
Wizard Hat
Pirate Hat
Frog Hat
Froggy Hat
Dragoon Helmet
Fedora
Green Berret
Tree Branch
Hatchet
Whip
Dagger
Short Sword
Katana
Scythe
Wooden Hammer
Stone Hammer
Great Sword
Inferno Sword
Spire Dagger
Event ItemsSanta Hat
Easter Egg Hat
Jacko Hat
Punkin Hat
Red Candy Cane
Blue Candy Cane
Green Candy Cane
Ghost Lantern
Tournament ItemsMaple's Classic Crown
Disasteroid's Gravity Crown
Ludacris's King Crown
St3k's Ice Crown
Specialboy's Gaia Crown
Dips's Blade Crown
Ludacris's Flame Gauntlet
Fog's Legendary Sand Sword
Much appreciated!
Quote from: Lucifer on July 11, 2010, 06:21:26 PM
Tell me if I forgot anything, I'll edit the list. I don't know the exact names of all the crowns and special weapons.
Red Bandana
Yellow Bandana
Blue Bandana
Green Bandana
Fireman Hat
Shady Hat
Jester Hat
Feather Hat
Ninja Mask
Bandit Mask
Bandit Cover
Bunny Ears
Deranged Bunny Ears
Black Bunny Ears
Viking Helmet
Knight Helmet
Dark Knight Helmet
Skull Mask
Top Hat
Wizard Hat
Pirate Hat
Frog Hat
Froggy Hat
Dragoon Helmet
Fedora
Green Berret
Tree Branch
Hatchet
Whip
Dagger
Short Sword
Katana
Scythe
Wooden Hammer
Stone Hammer
Great Sword
Inferno Sword
Spire Dagger
Event Items
Santa Hat
Easter Egg Hat
Jacko Hat
Punkin Hat
Red Candy Cane
Blue Candy Cane
Green Candy Cane
Ghost Lantern
Tournament Items
Maple's Classic Crown
Disasteroid's Gravity Crown
Ludacris's King Crown
St3k's Ice Crown
Specialboy's Gaia Crown
Dips's Blade Crown
Ludacris's Flame Gauntlet
Fog's Legendary Sand Sword
It looks like you only missed two, which are...
The Slasher
Fog's Guardian Helmet
If you happen to add anything into the list (not necessarily new categories like you just did), such as slipping something into an already constructed list, can you annotate it for me so I don't miss it? Thanks!
The LSS isn't unique to foG.
Bold and Italicized the additions and changes.Quote from: Lucifer on July 11, 2010, 06:21:26 PM
Tell me if I forgot anything, I'll edit the list. I don't know the exact names of all the crowns and special weapons.
Red Bandana
Yellow Bandana
Blue Bandana
Green Bandana
Fireman Hat
Shady Hat
Jester Hat
Feather Hat
Ninja Mask
Bandit Mask
Bandit Cover
Bunny Ears
Deranged Bunny Ears
Black Bunny Ears
Viking Helmet
Knight Helmet
Dark Knight Helmet
Skull Mask
Top Hat
Wizard Hat
Pirate Hat
Frog Hat
Froggy Hat
Dragoon Helmet
Fedora
Green Berret
Tree Branch
Hatchet
Whip
Dagger
Short Sword
Katana
Scythe
Wooden Hammer
Stone Hammer
Great Sword
Inferno Sword
Spire Dagger
Slasher
Legendary Sand Sword
Santa Hat
Easter Egg Hat
Jacko Hat
Punkin Hat
Red Candy Cane
Blue Candy Cane
Green Candy Cane
Ghost Lantern
Tournament Items
Maple's Classic Crown
Disasteroid's Gravity Crown
Ludacris's King Crown
St3k's Ice Crown
Specialboy's Gaia Crown
Dips's Blade Crown
Fog's Gaurdian Helmet
Ludacris's Flame Gauntlet
<MOVED>
Meiun has granted me the go-ahead to use Stick Online's graphics on the PvP League (yeah, I actually do that sort of stuff), so here is my calling to the community's graphic artists. I need a banner which is wider than it is tall, does not exceed 780px width, and is full of win! Let's see what you all got! Oh, BTW, yes, I will credit you in the footer as I already have for Meiun, and if you have a website, I'll ask when I pick your graphic, and that'll get linked in the footer as well, because I fully appreciate crediting hard work!
For dimensions, I'd say a 3:1 width to height ratio would be good. So that means 260px max height.
My Banner:
(http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6/pvplbannerfinal.png)
It's also worth noting that the site has a green-colored base theme, would be nice to accommodate that.
EDIT: If anyone wants to take a Flash stab at this, I'm all for a Flash banner!
EDIT #2: I'm not necessarily a fan of pixel art when it comes to banners (or at least pixel art that I see around these woods). I like detail, lots o' detail! Sure, you can add in pixel art that is SO graphics related, but things like title, text, no pixel art please.
By the way, pixel banners can be epic too. (http://www.foolstown.com/img/header.png) (http://www.foolstown.com/img/header.png)
Edit: Image is resized by forums- click to see actual size.
~Aqua
Quote from: Aqua on July 12, 2010, 02:11:49 AM
By the way, pixel banners can be epic too. (http://www.foolstown.com/img/header.png) (http://www.foolstown.com/img/header.png)
Edit: Image is resized by forums- click to see actual size.
~Aqua
Oh I fully agree, see above comment in parenthesis. It's an art form to be able to do stuff like that, and it's also wicked time consuming. So unless someone can do that at the speed of a week or so, I'll pass for now. A good rule of thumb, take pride in your work. If you think it looks meh, to me it's gonna look like a bag of !@#$.
Quote from: Scotty on July 12, 2010, 07:41:04 AM
Oh I fully agree, see above comment in parenthesis. It's an art form to be able to do stuff like that, and it's also wicked time consuming. So unless someone can do that at the speed of a week or so, I'll pass for now. A good rule of thumb, take pride in your work. If you think it looks meh, to me it's gonna look like a bag of !@#$.
Yeah, I did read the comment :P- I just thought the people around these woods needed to see the pixel art potential.
I would have given it a shot if there was a way to incorporate SO's style with quality pixel art at that scale.
~Aqua
My 2nd attempt @ banner:
(http://img251.imageshack.us/img251/2979/pvpanimbannerf.gif)
780 width is the page width I'm assuming, so it'll stretch across the top of the page, right?
Quote from: EpicPhailure on July 12, 2010, 12:37:51 PM
780 width is the page width I'm assuming, so it'll stretch across the top of the page, right?
Well maybe table or whatever he has it conformed to...Both of those banners are 780pixels wide exact.
Please no .gif files, .gif files are like html frames to graphics. If anything, do them in Flash.
EDIT: If we have any Flash designers, hit me up, I got a couple ideas floating around that I just don't have the time to do.
I think I might have a winner, don't bother submitting new stuff. Although, the Flash designer request still holds!
Bah, too late for me then D:
Getting back to the topic of verification. My idea was to have a 3rd party. Similar to the idea Scott had about having a GM sign up to verify a match. Also, similar to someone elses idea about having other league members comment and say who they saw won. The difference, both people in the match decide on 1 other person (who is also in the league) to be a 3rd party to the match. All 3 people would agree to this (somehow in the interface the two people in the match, when they are signing up for the match would choose another member, this would then prompt that 3rd member to accept the responsibility of verifying the match... if they refuse, or one of the people in the match decides on a different person, it would go back to the people in the match to choose someone else.) So then essentially, you would have both people saying whether they won or lost, and if those results don't match up, the 3rd party would verify. By having the whole process of both people in the match choosing who this 3rd person is, they are accepting that person's judgement.
The reason why I don't think community judgement is that great is because there's too much chance for the mob mentality to take effect and everyone decides to gang up on a given individual and start saying everything they say is false therby getting them banned from the league. It's too easy for that sort of thing to happen without any way of verifying. If it is limited to a GM or a trusted 3rd party which both people accept, there is little to no chance of people being falsely accused (and if they are, it was either their choice and they have to accept it, or we have a corrupt moderator.)
I have another question/point I'd like to bring up...
Many, if not all, people who play SO have more than 1 account they may like to use for PVP. If this is the case, are you going to have us register more than 1 account, or are we just going to have 1 account and tie multiple IGNs to it? Also, this doesn't apply to me, but I know it applies to some: Some people share accounts, and I'd imagine more than one person might want to use the same account for various matches...so I suppose that is something else to take into consideration.
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on July 12, 2010, 06:08:57 PM
I have another question/point I'd like to bring up...
Many, if not all, people who play SO have more than 1 account they may like to use for PVP. If this is the case, are you going to have us register more than 1 account, or are we just going to have 1 account and tie multiple IGNs to it? Also, this doesn't apply to me, but I know it applies to some: Some people share accounts, and I'd imagine more than one person might want to use the same account for various matches...so I suppose that is something else to take into consideration.
I think this is an interesting point of discussion. What's to stop someone from registering on the PVP League for someone elses SO game account? It brings up something that I was thinking of mentioning: Any plans to have the SO server send data to the PVP League website? I know this was something a previous SO did, but I'm not sure if that's a possibility at this point. It would be nice to have all of SO user data as well as possibly clan data. This way someone would have to type in their SO password to verify they own the account (though in the case of people who share their account this wouldn't eliminate someone else registering for it). This would also eliminate the need to moderate clans on the site separate from the game. The leader of the clan would be identified (and that person would be in charge of validating clan matches), and all of the members of the clan would be identified as well.
Though, if that's not possible, we could just have a standard account system. It would be nice for people with multiple accounts to register all of their accounts in one. And as for shared accounts, I don't think there's any need to accomodate this as the terms of the game considers it illegal anyways. If they share game accounts, they can share PVP League accounts. And if they don't want to share that account as well as any other account they might have, they could register them separately.
It is an all-in-one registration. You register for a PvP League account, and then you are given the option of adding your SO accounts once you've registered. As far as falsifying accounts, there isn't a whole lot we can do about that. I spoke with Meiun before about the stats, and while there are other ways of implementing the stat system, he said no, so that's unfortunately what we're going to have to roll with.
Lingus, I knew there was a reason you were still around! I didn't think about the mutual moderator, I think that'd be great idea! That's about as fool-proof as I think we can get!
I guess I could take a stab at a Flash banner but I really don't know what to put in it. It'd be nice if someone could point me in the right direction.
Would you want some kind of mouse-interactive thing or an animation, etc?
I'd have scrolling pictures of past PVP matches broken into little pieces. What I mean:
Have different scenes like that which present like a slideshow: show one, wait 30 seconds, show another.
First slide in the background of the arena (or wherever, and whatever kind of transition), bring in audience (if any), the key characters, and finally slowly move the key characters in an abstract way, while transitioning in source, if any. Bring in another shot.
(http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/2650/asddefeated.png) From screenshot topic, 4th page
In this case: 1) Slide in the arena. 2) Fade in the audience. 3) Flash in the DeamonClawz figure. 4) Add in the ASD! figure. 5) Move DeamonClawz and ASD! away from each other, both fading slowly; all this while bringing in 'Stick Online Official tournament July 11th 2009'. 6) When ~30 seconds has passed, transition to the next scene.
I hope this helps, and is not overwhelming.
~Aqua
Well here what I made so far...
http://www.swfcabin.com/open/1279053251
I based it off that picture. I'm not sure if it's what you wanted.
And if you click it, it links to this site. :D
Main part I don't like is how the audience/key characters are shown separately. I recommend doing a quick slide and a motion blur, so that the viewer can link the audience to the key characters. Also, if you take the arena background, you can pull the stick figures out. This way you can have a more dynamic picture so the characters don't look glued on.
~Aqua
Uh, I don't have a picture of the arena empty. Nor do I have an sprites of stickmen. D:
If I had some animated sprites and stuff, I could totally make this 100x better.