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Quote from: sayers6 on October 15, 2011, 11:03:00 AM

Quote from: Yankyal on October 15, 2011, 04:21:23 AM

Quote from: Scotty on October 05, 2011, 11:52:13 PM
My hat's off to him, my condolences to his family, sleep well Mr. Jobs, your life was one that people today dream of.

Except for his extremely unethical business practices.

Such as?

Wow, where do I begin?
-Exploiting child labor
-Running infested sweatshops in horrible conditions in China
-Pitting his workers against each other and verbally abusing them
-Shut down all philanthropic activities over 10 years ago regardless of the insane amount of profits they make
-REJECTING his own daughter for 2 years(not really business practice, but what the !@#$ man). This was after he abandoned his girlfriend and gave her 0 help regardless of being a millionaire.
-When Jobs was being payed to make a game, he asked for the help of Steve Wozniak, who BUSTED HIS ASS OFF to complete this game. He stayed up for 4 days straight to finish this game.Then Jobs gave him $375 of the share and pocked $5k, without ever telling Wozniak how much he was actually payed to make the game

I don't care how rich he was, or if he's the CEO of a successful company, the man himself was NOT the great person everyone is making him out to be. He did NOT change the world for the better. He was greedy and wasn't above !@#$ing over his own friends, family, and employers.

Wheres is the http://www.thefix.com/content/steve-jobs-think-different-and-lsd-9143 on your list?

I really don't hate Jobs. Just thought it was relevant.

Quote from: Yankyal on October 16, 2011, 02:30:33 PM

Quote from: sayers6 on October 15, 2011, 11:03:00 AM

Quote from: Yankyal on October 15, 2011, 04:21:23 AM

Quote from: Scotty on October 05, 2011, 11:52:13 PM
My hat's off to him, my condolences to his family, sleep well Mr. Jobs, your life was one that people today dream of.

Except for his extremely unethical business practices.

Such as?

Wow, where do I begin?
-Exploiting child labor
-Running infested sweatshops in horrible conditions in China
-Pitting his workers against each other and verbally abusing them
-Shut down all philanthropic activities over 10 years ago regardless of the insane amount of profits they make
-REJECTING his own daughter for 2 years(not really business practice, but what the !@#$ man). This was after he abandoned his girlfriend and gave her 0 help regardless of being a millionaire.
-When Jobs was being payed to make a game, he asked for the help of Steve Wozniak, who BUSTED HIS ASS OFF to complete this game. He stayed up for 4 days straight to finish this game.Then Jobs gave him $375 of the share and pocked $5k, without ever telling Wozniak how much he was actually payed to make the game

I don't care how rich he was, or if he's the CEO of a successful company, the man himself was NOT the great person everyone is making him out to be. He did NOT change the world for the better. He was greedy and wasn't above !@#$ing over his own friends, family, and employers.

Wow your arrogance is astonishing.  You do realize of course that Foxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple right?  Apple does not own Foxconn.  They partner with them.  Foxconn runs their own business, Apple runs theirs.  As far as his whole controversial Wozniak fit, I call that smarts.  Personal life is personal life, who gives a shit, philanthropic well you got us there, oh well.

So let me ask you this, since you've pretty much neglected the whole fact that he is one of the major contributors to the creation of the personal computer that you used to type your message on, where would we be without him?  Had the competition he produced between IBM, Microsoft, and all the other big hitters not even started, what would you be doing today?  Doubt you'd be Googling places to eat out, or using a smartphone to call someone on.

I refuse to bandwagon onto the apple fanatics side and defend him blindly similar to how you've attacked him blindly, but if I had to take sides, I'd say I'd side with the educated.  Being that your remarks are anything but educated, I guess that puts you on the side of the fence with the rest of the flame-inducing idiots who flock together with all the other uneducated cool kids.

Quote from: Scotty on October 16, 2011, 04:30:41 PM

Quote from: Yankyal on October 16, 2011, 02:30:33 PM

Quote from: sayers6 on October 15, 2011, 11:03:00 AM

Quote from: Yankyal on October 15, 2011, 04:21:23 AM

Quote from: Scotty on October 05, 2011, 11:52:13 PM
My hat's off to him, my condolences to his family, sleep well Mr. Jobs, your life was one that people today dream of.

Except for his extremely unethical business practices.

Such as?

Wow, where do I begin?
-Exploiting child labor
-Running infested sweatshops in horrible conditions in China
-Pitting his workers against each other and verbally abusing them
-Shut down all philanthropic activities over 10 years ago regardless of the insane amount of profits they make
-REJECTING his own daughter for 2 years(not really business practice, but what the !@#$ man). This was after he abandoned his girlfriend and gave her 0 help regardless of being a millionaire.
-When Jobs was being payed to make a game, he asked for the help of Steve Wozniak, who BUSTED HIS ASS OFF to complete this game. He stayed up for 4 days straight to finish this game.Then Jobs gave him $375 of the share and pocked $5k, without ever telling Wozniak how much he was actually payed to make the game

I don't care how rich he was, or if he's the CEO of a successful company, the man himself was NOT the great person everyone is making him out to be. He did NOT change the world for the better. He was greedy and wasn't above !@#$ing over his own friends, family, and employers.

Wow your arrogance is astonishing.  You do realize of course that Foxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple right?  Apple does not own Foxconn.  They partner with them.  Foxconn runs their own business, Apple runs theirs.  As far as his whole controversial Wozniak fit, I call that smarts.  Personal life is personal life, who gives a shit, philanthropic well you got us there, oh well.

So let me ask you this, since you've pretty much neglected the whole fact that he is one of the major contributors to the creation of the personal computer that you used to type your message on, where would we be without him?  Had the competition he produced between IBM, Microsoft, and all the other big hitters not even started, what would you be doing today?  Doubt you'd be Googling places to eat out, or using a smartphone to call someone on.

I refuse to bandwagon onto the apple fanatics side and defend him blindly similar to how you've attacked him blindly, but if I had to take sides, I'd say I'd side with the educated.  Being that your remarks are anything but educated, I guess that puts you on the side of the fence with the rest of the flame-inducing idiots who flock together with all the other uneducated cool kids.

All depends on whether you're a believer in the "ends justifying the means". You can't deny his impact on technological society, but likewise, there is heavy indication on his less-than ethical personal and ethical life and what he did.

Just comes down to what you believe is more important, really. Or alternatively, just say RIP and move on. Steve Jobs was not God, afterall.

I'll be interested to see if this will have any impact on the success of future Apple products. By that I mean genuinely new products, not new versions of existing Apple products.

I personally haven't been impressed with any product Apple has released under Steve Jobs since the iPod so his death isn't such a big deal for me.

Oh lewk, someone important died.
Oh lewk, a heated debate about him.
I am so surprised.

If any of you truly cared about his apparent negative qualities or business practices, I imagine I would have seen a couple more threads about him before he died and inspired media frenzy, eh?

Quote from: Scotty on October 16, 2011, 04:30:41 PM
Wow your arrogance is astonishing.  You do realize of course that Foxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple right?  Apple does not own Foxconn.  They partner with them.  Foxconn runs their own business, Apple runs theirs.  As far as his whole controversial Wozniak fit, I call that smarts.  Personal life is personal life, who gives a shit, philanthropic well you got us there, oh well.

So let me ask you this, since you've pretty much neglected the whole fact that he is one of the major contributors to the creation of the personal computer that you used to type your message on, where would we be without him?  Had the competition he produced between IBM, Microsoft, and all the other big hitters not even started, what would you be doing today?  Doubt you'd be Googling places to eat out, or using a smartphone to call someone on.

I refuse to bandwagon onto the apple fanatics side and defend him blindly similar to how you've attacked him blindly, but if I had to take sides, I'd say I'd side with the educated.  Being that your remarks are anything but educated, I guess that puts you on the side of the fence with the rest of the flame-inducing idiots who flock together with all the other uneducated cool kids.

Foxconn isn't even mentioned in my post...

-The "competition" he made was for DESIGN, the technology for smartphones and googling places to eat was not made or encouraged by Apple. Apple doesn't even deal in geographical technology, it didn't influence google to make google maps the badass tool it is today. Marketing, friendly interfaces, aethscetics,  that's what he improved. I'll admit that at least, but for the most part what he was doing was taking already existing technology and making it look pretty for customers.
-What he did to Wozniak is not "smarts", what the hell are you smoking? That's blatant dishonesty. Having your friend bust your ass for you and screwing him over like that, I can't believe you're justifying it like that. And, "who gives a shit"? I'm sure all these people treating him akin to a god would give a shit if they took the time to learn this.

I find it strange that you're saying I'm a flame-inducing idiot. Have I insulted anyone in this thread? Belittled anyone? Purposely tried to anger anyone? No, pointed out his unethical business habits and Sayers asked for examples, so I responded.  YOU'RE the one insulting people.

You're sitting here calling me arrogant, uneducated, and idiotic, who is the troll again? Have you ever considered that your angry responses are the reason discussion is so limited on these forums?

Quote from: Yankyal on October 16, 2011, 08:41:15 PM
I find it strange that you're saying I'm a flame-inducing idiot. Have I insulted anyone in this thread? Belittled anyone? Purposely tried to anger anyone? No, pointed out his unethical business habits and Sayers asked for examples, so I responded.  YOU'RE the one insulting people.

He's got you there, Scott.


Seriously, why are we even arguing about this?   Regardless of what he was or was not, the man DIED.  While I don't agree with the god-worship the "Apple Cult" gives him, nor am I a fan of Apple or its business practices at all, I think it's undeniable that he made a significant contribution to computer technology and, at the very least, his early death is a damn shame.  No, the man was not a saint, but somehow I doubt anyone in this topic is.  He WAS, however, a living breathing human being, and deserves a little respect in his passing.

Quote from: Chaos on October 16, 2011, 08:58:19 PM

Quote from: Yankyal on October 16, 2011, 08:41:15 PM
I find it strange that you're saying I'm a flame-inducing idiot. Have I insulted anyone in this thread? Belittled anyone? Purposely tried to anger anyone? No, pointed out his unethical business habits and Sayers asked for examples, so I responded.  YOU'RE the one insulting people.

He's got you there, Scott.


Seriously, why are we even arguing about this?   Regardless of what he was or was not, the man DIED.  While I don't agree with the god-worship the "Apple Cult" gives him, nor am I a fan of Apple or its business practices at all, I think it's undeniable that he made a significant contribution to computer technology and, at the very least, his early death is a damn shame.  No, the man was not a saint, but somehow I doubt anyone in this topic is.  He WAS, however, a living breathing human being, and deserves a little respect in his passing.

Case closed.

Quote from: Yankyal on October 16, 2011, 02:30:33 PM
-Pitting his workers against each other and verbally abusing them
-When Jobs was being payed to make a game, he asked for the help of Steve Wozniak, who BUSTED HIS ASS OFF to complete this game. He stayed up for 4 days straight to finish this game.Then Jobs gave him $375 of the share and pocked $5k, without ever telling Wozniak how much he was actually payed to make the game

If I tell you that I'll pay you $375 for a game from the start, and you manage to make the game, guess how much I'm going to pay you? $375. Just because Jobs got paid what the business said they'd pay him, and it was more than what Wozniak was promised, doesn't make their contract different. Pitting workers against each other? From what I've read in Newsweek,  he did so in a way that it wasn't making one team of workers hate another, it was making them compete....Which leads to better products....On the note of "verbally abusing them" I haven't been able to find anything on that.

On the rest of the things you listed, they don't really involve business.

Oh and philanthropic donations? Heard of Product  Red? Apple is the biggest participant in it, thanks to Jobs. Just because he himself didn't, doesn't mean his company didn't.

Quote from: sayers6 on October 17, 2011, 11:34:55 PM
If I tell you that I'll pay you $375 for a game from the start, and you manage to make the game, guess how much I'm going to pay you? $375. Just because Jobs got paid what the business said they'd pay him, and it was more than what Wozniak was promised, doesn't make their contract different. Pitting workers against each other? From what I've read in Newsweek,  he did so in a way that it wasn't making one team of workers hate another, it was making them compete....Which leads to better products....On the note of "verbally abusing them" I haven't been able to find anything on that.

On the rest of the things you listed, they don't really involve business.

Oh and philanthropic donations? Heard of Product  Red? Apple is the biggest participant in it, thanks to Jobs. Just because he himself didn't, doesn't mean his company didn't.

Quote from: sayers6 on October 17, 2011, 11:34:55 PM
If I tell you that I'll pay you $375 for a game from the start, and you manage to make the game, guess how much I'm going to pay you? $375. Just because Jobs got paid what the business said they'd pay him, and it was more than what Wozniak was promised, doesn't make their contract different. Pitting workers against each other? From what I've read in Newsweek,  he did so in a way that it wasn't making one team of workers hate another, it was making them compete....Which leads to better products....On the note of "verbally abusing them" I haven't been able to find anything on that.

On the rest of the things you listed, they don't really involve business.

Oh and philanthropic donations? Heard of Product  Red? Apple is the biggest participant in it, thanks to Jobs. Just because he himself didn't, doesn't mean his company didn't.

Product Red isn't even a fraction of what they could easily be donating, it's pretty much meaningless compared to what other companies as successful as Apple do. They made over 60 billion dollars last year in revenue.

Also, abusing the shitty child labor laws and running sweatshops in China to make products at a tenth of what he sold them for in the States, how is that not involving business? If anything this was the most !@#$ed up thing Jobs did.

ALSO, he didn't just say "here's $375, can you make this game?", he told Wozniak he was being payed $750 to make a game and that they should split the profits and the work. Then he got payed a $5000 bonus, and kept it secret from Wozniak.

As for the work abuse, he's known for getting pissed off and screaming at employees. He'd get in elevators, and fire employees there, and say "just kidding". He regularly berated employees until they were in tears and then fired them. How else would he win the Bully Bosses Award?

Sure he deserves his respects for being a good CEO, but not for being a good person.

Quote from: Yankyal on October 18, 2011, 07:02:49 PM
Also, abusing the shitty child labor laws and running sweatshops in China to make products at a tenth of what he sold them for in the States, how is that not involving business? If anything this was the most !@#$ed up thing Jobs did.

Foxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.

On the $375 Wozniak was paid....He continued to work with Jobs and made no complaint of what happened from what I can tell, so no harm, no foul. Also Jobs was "being paid $750 for making the game" you can't say he wasn't. Go read up on it. If he made the game and gave it to them, he would be paid $750, no more no less. Now if the chips were less than the amount that the Atari design had he would be paid $500 per chip. Technically $750 was the only guaranteed amount of money. No matter what, I consider that him being a good businessman. Plus, what person hasn't made money due to your friends' stupidity at least once? The friend gets over it and laughs.

Thank you for the little excerpt on Job's work environment, I'll give you credit for that. The fact that even those that didn't work for him still praised him as their favorite boss, still says there was something good about it all. But points for you, you win that one.

QuoteFoxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.

Apple is not Foxconn but they still do business with them knowing what they are. I mean do you feel safe doing business with some one that you may not agree with what they are doing?

Quote from: ARTgames on October 19, 2011, 12:13:40 AM

QuoteFoxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.

Apple is not Foxconn but they still do business with them knowing what they are. I mean do you feel safe doing business with some one that you may not agree with what they are doing?

And you still shop in.. Wal-Mart? Target? West49? You are officially no different than Steve Jobs by your logic. Nor is any other person who buys from big corporations. Rubbermaid, Microsoft, Sony. Your cell phone, laptop, watch? It was made by child labor or a piece of it by the practice. Your clothes? You guessed it. So take your "ethics" argument and shove it somewhere else.

Quote from: T-Rok on October 19, 2011, 12:34:58 AM

Quote from: ARTgames on October 19, 2011, 12:13:40 AM

QuoteFoxconn is Foxconn and Apple is Apple. Scotty addressed that.

Apple is not Foxconn but they still do business with them knowing what they are. I mean do you feel safe doing business with some one that you may not agree with what they are doing?

And you still shop in.. Wal-Mart? Target? West49? You are officially no different than Steve Jobs by your logic. Nor is any other person who buys from big corporations. Rubbermaid, Microsoft, Sony. Your cell phone, laptop, watch? It was made by child labor or a piece of it by the practice. Your clothes? You guessed it. So take your "ethics" argument and shove it somewhere else.

That's pretty hostile, T-Rok, and also full of assumptions about ARTGames. Don't be so hasty. >.>

Yes, by supporting companies like that, you are indirectly supporting the horrible work conditions and what not that the people who make your consumer lifestyle items have to live with. Doesn't mean you can't call other people out on it as well - especially when they are the ones who have direct influence and control over the working conditions, much more so than I do as an individual consumer. His argument is very valid.