Religion Thread 2.0

[Yankyal]

To keep the Anxiety Issues thread from going further off topic than it already is, and because Mystery is too mysterious to make threads, I have made a religion thread.

We were last discussing morality or something. This reminds me of a common argument saying without religion(specifically Christianity) there would be no morality. However, as Mystery said, one of the biggest reasons some people are atheist is because they actually studied their religion. It is immoral to kill people, yet many religions have stories of murder being glorified. I also think anyone who grew up in a place without any religion but instead were taught logic and reason would look at many of our religions and think of them as violent and manipulative constructs made by humans.

Opinions?

[Matty_Richo]

However, as Mystery said, one of the biggest reasons some people are atheist is because they actually studied their religion.

I wanted to focus in on this sentence. I think he is right, I think there are lots of people who make uninformed decisions about religion, whether it be simply because their parents are religious so they just follow them or whether the people they are around are also of that religion.

I myself am a Christian, however it is a decision I made by carefully looking at the Bible, learning about it and then making my decision. However I do know people that just claim to be Christian and after they find out more (specifically the things that aren't all that attractive to them or mean they need to alter their lifestyle) just give up and turn away from religion.

Part of that is also that people don't understand, they read in the Bible (or the respective book for other religions) about sacrifice, be it of people or animals, and they see that as immoral.

Another huge issue I believe is other people of that religion turn others away from it. I've spoken to people who have deliberately kept away from Christians because they once knew a Christian who would throw it in their face all the time, or publicly make it look like they were performing some kind of cult rituals when they prayed or whatever.

[Mystery]

To keep the Anxiety Issues thread from going further off topic than it already is, and because Mystery is too mysterious to make threads, I have made a religion thread.

We were last discussing morality or something. This reminds me of a common argument saying without religion(specifically Christianity) there would be no morality. However, as Mystery said, one of the biggest reasons some people are atheist is because they actually studied their religion. It is immoral to kill people, yet many religions have stories of murder being glorified. I also think anyone who grew up in a place without any religion but instead were taught logic and reason would look at many of our religions and think of them as violent and manipulative constructs made by humans.

Opinions?

I'll just say one thing before discussion gets started.

The most common problem I have with people in a religious context(I am specifically referring to the ones who conduct themselves poorly, automatically excluding several)is trying to force their thoughts onto others, be it militant Christians, Muslims, Jews, atheists, etc.

However, asking questions such as 'Why do you think this way' to clarify and responding well as well as raising topic to talk about is quite enjoyable, and I've found it to really give meaning to everyone's respective feelings.

I'd be ready to respond to any topic anyone wants to bring up.

I also think anyone who grew up in a place without any religion but instead were taught logic and reason would look at many of our religions and think of them as violent and manipulative constructs made by humans.

I think that is a possibility, but religion is so easy to conform to one's own way of thinking/living that new meanings can develop. As a whole, religion has really changed a lot. An example of this is fundamentalism, which has really only started to 'bear fruit' since the late 19th century.

EDIT: Everyone should also note I've been an atheist my entire life. My parents didn't force me to go to church, nor did they go. They let me make my own decision.

[Torch]

I believe what I logically determine to be true based on the available evidence. In fact, I'm wholly convinced that Jesus Christ is a fictional character in the new testament.

That being said, I don't see any problem with people following any religion as long as it doesn't interfere with social advancement. Unfortunately, it very often does interfere with social advancement. Laws restricting gay marriage and atheist senators are totally counterproductive and only exist (in a few states) as a result of religious preaching. There are an incredible number of examples of religious beliefs directly interfering with social advancement and until a solution to this can be found, I give religion a thumbs down.

[TANK]

i dont really care about any of it to be honest. I just hope that when i die theres something else out there, everything else is just noise.

[Yankyal]

i dont really care about any of it to be honest. I just hope that when i die theres something else out there, everything else is just noise.

Wow that is seriously dangerous thinking broham. Please appreciate your life. I hope you don't lay on your deathbed in your final hours and regret not living life to the fullest because you had the hopes that there was something more.

I wanted to focus in on this sentence. I think he is right, I think there are lots of people who make uninformed decisions about religion, whether it be simply because their parents are religious so they just follow them or whether the people they are around are also of that religion.

I myself am a Christian, however it is a decision I made by carefully looking at the Bible, learning about it and then making my decision. However I do know people that just claim to be Christian and after they find out more (specifically the things that aren't all that attractive to them or mean they need to alter their lifestyle) just give up and turn away from religion.

Part of that is also that people don't understand, they read in the Bible (or the respective book for other religions) about sacrifice, be it of people or animals, and they see that as immoral.

Another huge issue I believe is other people of that religion turn others away from it. I've spoken to people who have deliberately kept away from Christians because they once knew a Christian who would throw it in their face all the time, or publicly make it look like they were performing some kind of cult rituals when they prayed or whatever.

I myself turned away because I found some of God's actions and doctrines to be morally reprehensible. All the killing being done by his hands, such as the global flood, and then him making a doctrine forbidding murder.

[TANK]

no i appreciate my life, i just dont understand all the drama and bullshit and thats what i think is noise. Like gay marriage for example a man is made to love a women, for whatever reason some people dont have these same intended by nature feelings. Maybe they are ahead of the game and are beginning to evolve into asexuals like we will have penises and vaginas or something( i dont know )or they just want to be weird (there are people like that). Its still against the christian religion which in my point of veiw makes sense, have your relation and dont get married, its for man and women not man and man deal with it.

[Celson]

I'm not to interested in expressing my every thought about religion because I've got to much to say. But I will say this.. I am !@#$ing sick of getting preached to every !@#$ing day of the week that I go to work. I'm waiting for a bus, I'm NOT waiting to be enlightened about how true there religion is and how great of a guy Jesus was. I'm just not interested.

[11clock]

I believe what I logically determine to be true based on the available evidence. In fact, I'm wholly convinced that Jesus Christ is a fictional character in the new testament.

Some of the people who wrote the Bible knew Jesus, one of them being John, one of Jesus's 12 disciples. There are also various historical documents written by atheists that even talk about Jesus Christ, although they all do nothing but try to prove that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Historians also acknowledge that Jesus was a real person. This kind of evidence proves that Jesus existed, but the world to this day is still trying to figure out whether or not he was who he claimed he is. You can't say that he didn't exist, only that he was either the Messiah, a liar, or a lunatic. It's your choice which you believe.

I myself am a Christian (obviously), for various reasons that I can't list without starting a religious debate.

[Jake]

no i appreciate my life, i just dont understand all the drama and bullshit and thats what i think is noise. Like gay marriage for example a man is made to love a women, for whatever reason some people dont have these same intended by nature feelings. Maybe they are ahead of the game and are beginning to evolve into asexuals like we will have penises and vaginas or something( i dont know )or they just want to be weird (there are people like that). Its still against the christian religion which in my point of veiw makes sense, have your relation and dont get married, its for man and women not man and man deal with it.

Seriously, people like you are the problem with society. If two consenting adults want to get married, I see absolutely no reason why that should be an issue. Why is it perfectly ok for two straight people to get divorced and remarried 6 times, but a loving same-sex couple of 10 years can't have the same rights? Most gay people I have met don't "just want to be weird". That's who they are, whether you or any Christians like it or not. This type of limited, narrow-minded view of the world is hindering the advancement of the human race. Why is it so damn hard to let people live their life how they want to live it, instead of trying to mold everyone to what you want them to be? You can have your beliefs, but stop imposing them on people simply because you don't understand any mindset other than your own. I'm not saying churches should be forced to marry gay couples, I'm saying that our government has absolutely no reason not to recognize a marriage between two consenting adults. What is so darn horrible about giving the same benefits to a gay couple that all straight couples already get to receive, even if that straight couple doesn't even love each other? 30 years from now, when gay marriage is legalized across America, you'll be the one dealing with it. As much as people like you try to limit the advancement of our species, there will always be more intelligent, more caring people, pushing it in the opposite direction. It's time you stop trying to drag us down and hop on the freedom train.

I believe what I logically determine to be true based on the available evidence. In fact, I'm wholly convinced that Jesus Christ is a fictional character in the new testament.

Some of the people who wrote the Bible knew Jesus, one of them being John, one of Jesus's 12 disciples. There are also various historical documents written by atheists that even talk about Jesus Christ, although they all do nothing but try to prove that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Historians also acknowledge that Jesus was a real person. This kind of evidence proves that Jesus existed, but the world to this day is still trying to figure out whether or not he was who he claimed he is. You can't say that he didn't exist, only that he was either the Messiah, a liar, or a lunatic. It's your choice which you believe.

I myself am a Christian (obviously), for various reasons that I can't list without starting a religious debate.

What's wrong with a religious debate? I've found it very informative and thought provoking to debate my views. It helps me weed out the weak view points and help enforce the strong ones. Also, jesus has not been proven to exist. I can say that there's no reason to believe he exists until you prove otherwise. And no, there is no proof for his existence, only a weak amount of evidence mainly found in the bible.

[Torch]

Some of the people who wrote the Bible knew Jesus, one of them being John, one of Jesus's 12 disciples. There are also various historical documents written by atheists that even talk about Jesus Christ, although they all do nothing but try to prove that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Historians also acknowledge that Jesus was a real person. This kind of evidence proves that Jesus existed

I think there's a bit on confusion here. I'm saying Jesus is a fictional character in a historical document (the new testament). You're citing Jesus' existence using more historical documents O_O Saying that "This kind of evidence proves that Jesus existed"

Could you imagine if I accused a man of murder, went to court and said "This man murdered someone, it says so in this book that I wrote. Look, I even wrote another book that says that I was right there and saw it happen. And there's a few other books my friends wrote that also say it happened! Even a few atheists believe me!"

My case would be thrown right out, I can guarantee that "This kind of evidence" doesn't prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact, it's not even half convincing, it's totally ridiculous! And these people even had a motive to falsify his existence, they wanted to spread their beliefs!

I'd love to see actual historical evidence of Jesus, not just written accounts.

As it is, not only is it not proven, it's not even remotely likely. There's a big difference between generally accepted views and rational views.

[Scotty]

Some of the people who wrote the Bible knew Jesus, one of them being John, one of Jesus's 12 disciples. There are also various historical documents written by atheists that even talk about Jesus Christ, although they all do nothing but try to prove that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Historians also acknowledge that Jesus was a real person. This kind of evidence proves that Jesus existed

I think there's a bit on confusion here. I'm saying Jesus is a fictional character in a historical document (the new testament). You're citing Jesus' existence using more historical documents O_O Saying that "This kind of evidence proves that Jesus existed"

Could you imagine if I accused a man of murder, went to court and said "This man murdered someone, it says so in this book that I wrote. Look, I even wrote another book that says that I was right there and saw it happen. And there's a few other books my friends wrote that also say it happened! Even a few atheists believe me!"

My case would be thrown right out, I can guarantee that "This kind of evidence" doesn't prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact, it's not even half convincing, it's totally ridiculous! And these people even had a motive to falsify his existence, they wanted to spread their beliefs!

I'd love to see actual historical evidence of Jesus, not just written accounts.

As it is, not only is it not proven, it's not even remotely likely. There's a big difference between generally accepted views and rational views.

Wasn't there some evidence that was being investigated a couple years back (wanna say around 07-08) where archaeologists might have discovered the tomb of Christ, body and all?  I honestly didn't keep up with it, as so far as I remember it sort of fell off the radar.

Honestly, that sort of thing actually goes against what I personally believe.  Not in the Catholic sense that I was brought up upon (and have since fallen away from, a great distance).  My beliefs at this stage in my life are less "Praise Jesus", but rather, be happy and live the life you want to live.  If those remains were in fact that remains of Christ, the entire new testament is null and void.  If Jesus's remains still exist, he did not resurrect from the dead, he didn't ascend to heaven, he was a mortal human being, and that realization would crush centuries of religious beliefs.  That alone goes against what I believe.  Sure, no one could prove it, how they even speculated that it could be Jesus's tomb is beyond me (hence the distaste I have), but lets say someone came forward and said, "Yep, we found him, bones and all!"  Could you imagine the distraught it would cause upon the entire Christian faith?  Do you really want to have to deal with that?  That is taking the faith of so many human beings, and running it into the ground, destabilizing the entire Christian religion and demoralizing it's following.  THAT is oppressing your beliefs (or rather, lack of) upon others and the damage it would do is very substantial.  There's no proof it could it be the Christian Messiah, since for all we know, there's a possibility he was a fictional character.  Why would someone say, "Hey, we found a tomb out in the middle east, must be Jesus"?  It makes no sense.

Either way, I'm all for debate, I'm all for factual and emotional expression so long as people can remain open-minded, but for the love of God (and this is not directed at anyone in particular thus far), do not mistake your faith for fact.  The minute you try to impose your beliefs upon someone else here, telling them that what you believe is the only acceptable answer, that is the minute you need to remove yourself from this conversation.

[Jake]

I'm NOT Christian because of peer pressure. While I was raised a Christian, I later on looked at the Bible logically and saw some things about it that I started questioning. My twin brother has been able to answer every question I had about the Bible, so now I find it more logical to follow the Bible than to become an atheist. 40 people who lived in different time periods and three different languages coming up with such a huge lie I find to be very unlikely, and there's also the fact that some of the writers of the Bible knew Jesus in person. I've never fallen under peer pressure, and probably never will.

Please don't come up with such broad generalizations, thank you.

If you were born in Iraq, you'd be a Muslim. If you were born in India, you'd be a Hindu. If you were born in Ancient Greece, you'd pray to Athena. The religion you follow can easily be explained through geography and culture. The problem is, since you were raised Christian, it's extremely hard to see the flaws in that religion because they seem so normal. If you were never taught a thing about Christianity, and somebody introduced you to the bible at age 18, would you really believe the far-fetched stories? Moses parting the red sea, Jesus turning water into wine, 2 of everyone animal on an arc that survived the flooding of the entire world? The answer is no. In fact, if you only had the bible and didn't have other viewpoints from friends and relatives about what the bible was teaching, your version of Christianity would be entirely different than what you follow now. The message the bible is trying to convey can be received in thousands of ways.

If you take your faith seriously, it's important to be skeptical about it. When I was around 17, I took my faith very seriously. I wanted to prove Christianity correct. I didn't just bounce some ideas off a family member, I debated people. I tried to argue points of intelligent design, irreducible complexity, the hard problem of consciousness, to prove my religion correct. After a while, I realized that the rationalizations I was using to prove my religion were actually casting doubts in my mind on it's validity. If you're relatively satisfied with your beliefs, you haven't studied them enough. If you want to read something that will really rock your world, give the "Dossier of Reason" a read. Written by a former youth pastor, he goes into great detail about some of the fallacies committed when arguing for religion.

[Torch]

If you were born in Iraq, you'd be a Muslim. If you were born in India, you'd be a Hindu. If you were born in Ancient Greece, you'd pray to Athena. The religion you follow can easily be explained through geography and culture. The problem is, since you were raised Christian, it's extremely hard to see the flaws in that religion because they seem so normal.

That's an interesting argument. I read a bit of the Dossier of Reason and I saw that. I thought it was pretty cool.

[TANK]

gay marriage is against christianity and it seams gay people just have to have it, why for who knows maybe because they cant have it? people want what they cant have i suppose. I think since its such a big thing to the christian religion...and marriage was originally created by the church for a man and a women im pretty sure so i dont understand why gays cant let it slide. sorry im not on the bandwagon for freedom and im dragging everybody down. It just seams to me that gays are just picking fights with a order thats been set in stone and been doing there own thing before a peen even ever touched a hairy mans lips. About the weird comment, there are people who are gay just to be different, i knew a few back when, and thats what i meant.

note: i have nothing against gays i find they are the easiest people to get along with. I just dont understand why they need to get married :\.