Stick Online Forums

This has always been a difficult decision when it comes to pvp matches, so the winning vote in this poll will be put into the tourny.

Poll Ends WEDNESDAY 5pm GMT+1

Okay, so Hotkeys are only allowed in a fight, if both players agree beforehand.

Anyone could use hotkeys, but they are only useful when you have alot of rare equipment. Such as GS, Slasher, Spire, Green beret, DKH.

It's very advantageous to switch from a slow weapon to a fast weapon, or switch from GB to DKH After taking a couple hits. The problem with this is that these items are extremely rare. And while some people litterally hunt for these items non-stop, they still do not attain them. Sometimes we are just unlucky.

Tl;DR=Hotkeys are only really useful when you have rare items. Making pvp come down to who has better luck, not who has better skill.

Its not unfair when every one can do it.

Quote from: ARTgames on July 05, 2009, 11:12:34 AM
Its not unfair when every one can do it.

thats exactly my point, eveyone who want to do it, can do so, so how could they be unfair?

I think at least tournaments should be kept old school. That's my opinion.

Seifer makes a pretty good point, so I'd say no.
Now if they were actually part of the game itself and not an add-on, different story.

Quote from: CherryPie on July 05, 2009, 11:45:11 AM

Quote from: ARTgames on July 05, 2009, 11:12:34 AM
Its not unfair when every one can do it.

thats exactly my point, eveyone who want to do it, can do so, so how could they be unfair?

It's unfair because not everyone Wants to. I personally don't like hotkeys at all, unless I'm looking for a bit more convenient way to level up. Using them in PVP just seems unrealistic and stupid. Forcing people to do something they don't want to and making them use hotkeys because You are using them is ridiculous. And yes, you are forcing them, because with hotkeys you have a HUGE advantage. I feel hotkeys should either be illegal, or implemented in the game itself.

Quote from: Seifer on July 05, 2009, 10:10:46 AM
Anyone could use hotkeys, but they are only useful when you have alot of rare equipment. Such as GS, Slasher, Spire, Green beret, DKH.

It's very advantageous to switch from a slow weapon to a fast weapon, or switch from GB to DKH After taking a couple hits. The problem with this is that these items are extremely rare. And while some people litterally hunt for these items non-stop, they still do not attain them. Sometimes we are just unlucky.

Tl;DR=Hotkeys are only really useful when you have rare items. Making pvp come down to who has better luck, not who has better skill.

I did not even read your post. sorry for some reason i thought you were a ad.

Heres the problem with your post. This is not a hotkeys problem. These items are still better using hotkeys or not. So its still a matter of luck non the less.

You also say there are only useful for rar items. I had one that switch from my pirate to my wizy and it was useful. and nether of those items are hard to get. I could take out the word hotkey in your post and it still wold be true.

QuoteIt's unfair because not everyone Wants to.

than dont use them. why must some one who whats to use hotkey not because you want dont them to?

Do the "I don't mind" votes count for yes, or count for nothing?

Quote from: Petro on July 05, 2009, 02:58:41 PM
Do the "I don't mind" votes count for yes, or count for nothing?

i voted that and i thought it means the same thing as "ether way is fine". i hope it does!

Quote from: ARTgames on July 05, 2009, 03:03:32 PM

Quote from: Petro on July 05, 2009, 02:58:41 PM
Do the "I don't mind" votes count for yes, or count for nothing?

i voted that and i thought it means the same thing as "ether way is fine". i hope it does!

Wouldn't it meaning "ether way is fine" really count for nothing in this poll? Since if Yes gets the majority, there will be hotkeys and if no gets the majority, there won't.

Quote from: Petro on July 05, 2009, 03:06:09 PM

Quote from: ARTgames on July 05, 2009, 03:03:32 PM

Quote from: Petro on July 05, 2009, 02:58:41 PM
Do the "I don't mind" votes count for yes, or count for nothing?

i voted that and i thought it means the same thing as "ether way is fine". i hope it does!

Wouldn't it meaning "ether way is fine" really count for nothing in this poll? Since if Yes gets the majority, there will be hotkeys and if no gets the majority, there won't.

the I don't mind would count for the "yes" because that person does not mind if hotkeys are used. It wouldn't be a no because they don't hate that idea of them being used.

The i don't mind shows me the % of people that don't mind. It neither counts for a yes or a no, merely to give me an idea on how much one way or the other the vote is...

Quote from: Danimal on July 05, 2009, 03:32:15 PM
The i don't mind shows me the % of people that don't mind. It neither counts for a yes or a no, merely to give me an idea on how much one way or the other the vote is...

If the % of people who "mind" is higher than the % of people "who whats to" but the % of people who "don't mind" with the % "who what to" is higher than the % of people who "mind" than will that still cause a no hotkeys rule? If so i dont think thats far.

I voted no, simply because I agree with Seifer, I could use slasher followed immediately by IS.  I don't purely because then I have a huge advantage, and after all my IS drop was down to luck. In a way you could say because of the luck of that IS drop, it made it far easier for me to be the first to reach level 100.

Quote from: GaZ on July 05, 2009, 05:05:56 PM
I voted no, simply because I agree with Seifer, I could use slasher followed immediately by IS.  I don't purely because then I have a huge advantage, and after all my IS drop was down to luck. In a way you could say because of the luck of that IS drop, it made it far easier for me to be the first to reach level 100.

How about add a ban to god like weapon? because that seems to be the problem.

Quote from: ARTgames on July 05, 2009, 02:57:07 PM

QuoteIt's unfair because not everyone Wants to.

than dont use them. why must some one who whats to use hotkey not because you want dont them to?

Because, as I said and you obviously didn't read, that would be unfair. I honestly don't think think the use of third party programs should be used at All in Official Tournaments. Legal, or illegal.

Quote from: Lucifer on July 05, 2009, 05:29:27 PM

Quote from: ARTgames on July 05, 2009, 02:57:07 PM

QuoteIt's unfair because not everyone Wants to.

than dont use them. why must some one who whats to use hotkey not because you want dont them to?

Because, as I said and you obviously didn't read, that would be unfair. I honestly don't think think the use of third party programs should be used at All in Official Tournaments. Legal, or illegal.

How is it unfair. the only argument i have seen is if you use more powerful equipment and use hotkey your more powerfully than some one who does not. And NO duh! some one who is using more powerful equipment is going to be stronger.

If your really are good at pvp than you can beat some one without. You people are discussion how people put on there equips.

Then people start asking for pvp to be the old school why. and the fact of the matter is hats were once assigned to keyboard keys and we had no problems with that. Non of this was a problem until weapons came into the seen and i think those are the things that should be balanced because hotleys or not they are still rare powerful luck based weapons that will kill you.

I dont know why i am even here. i don't use hotkeys and im not in the tournament.

I voted no because, If your doing random pairing for the matches, and say a lvl 80er, gets stck pvping with a lvl 100 and hotkeys are allowed, it just gives that more of an unfair advantage.

~Looperpuck

also dont think they should be used in tournament because:

QuoteDustin Miller (Meiun), creator of Stick Online

TERMS OF USE (RULES):
The following are violations of the Stick Online Terms of Use:
-Failing to respect and obey the GMs at all times
-Harassing or failing to respect other players
-Attempting to hack, modify, decompile, or in any way alter or misuse the game files or server
-Running any form of hacking/cheating software while running the game
-Attempting to connect to the game server with anything other than the official game client
-Using third party programs to alter/automate gameplay, or in any way take away the need for
constant user to computer interaction
-Advocating illegal activities, including but not limited to: terrorism,
drug use/trafficking, software piracy, computer hacking or fraud.
-Exploiting game bugs and/or game systems
-Accessing another player's account
-Asking players for their login info ingame, or through the games forum system
-Failure to respect all players, at all times
-Spamming of the games chat system
-Impersonation of GMs or other players
-Asking the GM's for items, special events, stat point resets, etc.
-Asking to be a GM
-Failure to report anyone you found to be breaking these rules

And even if i dont like it i still follow the rules.

That's a pretty good find, never saw that one before, must have been recently added, g'bye hotkeyz!

Hotkeys are allowed. That rule is more specifically aimed at macroing. Say you set up a macro that jumps down form temple, hits  a bunch of skellies, and jumps back up. Heals. Rinse and repeat, = Automated EXP,

Anyways art, I was referring to the fact that someone with say a GB and DKH can switch off from GB WITH HOTKEYS after that HP has been used up. If there was no hotkeys, they wouldent do it. That is why hotkeys + rare items= advantage.

Basicaly what Seifer said is right. For the game rules in general, anything that aids in a very simple task such as switching a hat is ok. A simple rule of thumb for what is ok for the game (in it's current state atleast) is that simulating mouse clicks is okay, but keyboard is not okay.

Quote from: Seifer on July 05, 2009, 10:01:57 PM
Hotkeys are allowed. That rule is more specifically aimed at macroing. Say you set up a macro that jumps down form temple, hits  a bunch of skellies, and jumps back up. Heals. Rinse and repeat, = Automated EXP,

We are talking about macro. You make a hokey to activate macro (aka; shift, f1, ect) than it does the clicking. This creates a hotkey effect. but for it to be a true hotkey it hast to be built into the software its self. the moving and clicking is considers a macro in the computer gaming world. macro's are a little different in programing.

There are programs out there to help you do this. AutoHotkey is one of the most common. and even some of stick online's hotkeys are written in it. but you could use game maker or anything else.

QuoteAutoHotkey is a free, open source macro-creation and automation software utility which allows users to automate repetitive tasks

The 2ed words in bold is what the stick online hotkey programs do. the first is to tell you the relationship of micros to those program's.

non the less it can be taken to far and be tuned into a bot. i know that's what meiun means and he ok with the switching of hats. he gets more picky when it comes to swinging of weps. we talked about this one the old forums.

My last post (with the rules) was made to lure off some people to lower down the heat. i also kinda wanted to discuses the wording of it but i don't what to get too off topic.

QuoteAnyways art, I was referring to the fact that someone with say a GB and DKH can switch off from GB WITH HOTKEYS after that HP has been used up

Whats stopping them from leaving there innovatory open and clicking?  nothing other than they haft to stop moving to do so.

but with one of those tap pads on a laptop you can move the mouse with your thrum without having to leave the arrow keys. so you can quickly switch without having to stop moving. AKA the same thing you can do with hotkeys but slower. Are those wrong also?

What im saying is that's just the games fault (i guess consequent would be a better word than fault) that it did not take in consideration of moving while switching of items. All these hotkeys do is automate and do things faster than human speed (i know this is the part that has you all worked up). It (hotkeys) does not do anything the game was not built to be able to do.

But non the less i will say that i see why you don't what this to be in the tory. i say its because of a "games fault" and youll balm it on hotkeys and lets just keep it that way. lets agree to disagree.

its the game fault that you can open your inva that fast and switch items while moving. its the games fault that you can cause this healing effect. All hotkeys do i exploit this and not caused it.

It just happens that the lucky people can exploit this easier than some one without the gear. the game lets them do that those even if it might of not been attended.

I really wish stick online was a console game because all of this would have been less of a problem. but that's whats happens on the pc platform.

Im going to repeat my self:
I see why you dont what this to be used and i have changed my mind to say i also agree this should not be used in the "Official Stick Online Tournament". But the reason behind it is different. as in i blame the game for allowing this.


Man im stubborn. :P

Edit:
I been thinking about this and if the main problem is

QuoteI was referring to the fact that someone with say a GB and DKH can switch off from GB WITH HOTKEYS after that HP has been used up. If there was no hotkeys, they wouldent do it

why not just ban that because its unfair and still alow hotkeys?

Oh yes lets go ahead and blame the Game for allowing Us to exploit it.
That makes Perfect sense.

Look, you've already proved our point to yourself. Macros allow people to do things faster than any human can, and for that simple reason they shouldn't be used in PVP. I don't care if they're used in PVE one bit, people can feel free to make it more convenient for themselves, because they aren't creating an inconvenience for others.

Quote
but with one of those tap pads on a laptop you can move the mouse with your thrum without having to leave the arrow keys. so you can quickly switch without having to stop moving. AKA the same thing you can do with hotkeys but slower. Are those wrong also?

Well thats a straw man if I've ever seen one. You've already said yourself that hotkeys allow you to, and I quote, "do things faster than human speed", and thats the entire point of this argument.

It isn't the games damn fault that humans can create programs that allow them to exploit it.

Quote from: Lucifer on July 06, 2009, 12:04:32 AM
Oh yes lets go ahead and blame the Game for allowing Us to exploit it.
That makes Perfect sense.

So its not the games fault to have a exploit? the hotkeys did not make the exploit. its just what exploit it. The key did not make the key hole. it just opens the lock.

If we patch the hole the key cant go in. but its not the keys fault that theirs a hole it can fit into. Hope that makes scenes.

That does not make it right to use it (the dnk green hat thingy) but i dont think all of hotkeys should not be used because there one or two problems that one or two people can exploit but there many others who cant and can use it (hotkeys) fairly.

There IS no exploit in the first place. We're talking about switching items here, how exactly do you plan on "closing" the hole of being able to open your inventory and choosing a different item?

I mean cmon art, let me rephrase that sentance for you.

Hackers aren't the exploit, they're just who exploit it. Does that suddenly mean the Hackers are innocent? And that it's the entire world's fault for being so easily mislead?

The point I'm trying to get through here is that No, it is not the Game's fault that WE use 3rd party programs to speed things up for ourselves. It's our choice to put the key in the hole, even if the hole exists. In any case It's pretty self apparent that most of SO does not want to have have hotkeys in the tournament. Sorry for getting (sort of) off topic.

Wouldn't just limiting the amount of times someone can switch weapons and hats in one round fix this?  Like you can change your weapon once and your hat twice, I doubt someone without hotkeys would be able to change any more then three times during one match, and it limits someone with hotkeys.  Plus I don't see how you can enforce no hotkeys, if someone switches gear and they are moving they get banned from the tourney cause you suspect they are using them?

~Pin

Quote from: Lucifer on July 06, 2009, 12:29:56 AM
There IS no exploit in the first place. We're talking about switching items here, how exactly do you plan on "closing" the hole of being able to open your inventory and choosing a different item?

I mean cmon art, let me rephrase that sentance for you.

Hackers aren't the exploit, they're just who exploit it. Does that suddenly mean the Hackers are innocent? And that it's the entire world's fault for being so easily mislead?

"There IS no exploit in the first place. We're talking about switching items here, how exactly do you plan on "closing" the hole of being able to open your inventory and choosing a different item?"

making the time on swing to those items work only at speeds that are humanly possible. as in theirs no way your going to open that box click on that hat and close it that fast.

"Hackers aren't the exploit, they're just who exploit it. Does that suddenly mean the Hackers are innocent? And that it's the entire world's fault for being so easily mislead?"
i think your just missed my updated post but.

QuoteThat does not make it right to use it (the dnk green hat thingy)

so no that does not make them innocent but it does not make the exploit go away because its not a good thing.

If there was a hole (exploit) in the banks security and a hacker got into it its not the hacker fault that there was a exploit.
(unless he set it there than tricked the bank into installing it, that might be a good book idea)
If the exploit was never there it would never happen. does not make what he(the hacker) doing right but it also doesn't make the exploit never have been there in the first place.

But i do think its far to use hotkeys with items that are more commonly advalbe (<-- have no idea how to spell that). and more people have commonly advalbe items than people who have what i call the god weps. there a greater majority that cant than can. and you just stop those people (the ones who can).

Edit:

QuoteWouldn't just limiting the amount of times someone can switch weapons and hats in one round fix this?  Like you can change your weapon once and your hat twice, I doubt someone without hotkeys would be able to change any more then three times during one match, and it limits someone with hotkeys.  Plus I don't see how you can enforce no hotkeys, if someone switches gear and they are moving they get banned from the tourney cause you suspect they are using them?

~Pin

Great thinking. also "Plus I don't see how you can enforce no hotkeys" yeah thats what happens on the pc platform when your dealing with the public.

To clear things up, what Seifer and Meiun were talking about was "bots". Bots are a type of macro script that automates actions such as walking around and/or attacking monsters. The type of macro script used to change weapons would not be considered a bot. It doesn't make your character do any automated actions, it just switches your gear for you quicker than you could (albeit only slightly so). Which is why it is legal in normal gameplay.

As for my opinion on whether it should be allowed in an official tournament, I say no. The reason why is that it is something that changes pvp quite a bit and it is not a normal game function. Those two things make it pretty clear that for an official tournament it shouldn't be allowed. If someone wants to be able to change their gear mid-fight, they should leave their inventory window open and practice switching hands to the mouse and changing gear quickly. That requires skill. Using a hotkey program makes it so you don't need that skill. Someone who devotes a portion of their time practicing that skill will have to work harder to get there. Whereas someone who doesn't work on that skill might want to focus their time elsewhere, such as other pvp tactics that don't require switching gear.

Adding in a hotkey element screws with all that and allows anyone to switch their gear quickly without putting in any extra effort to do so. People who don't use that tactic are now at a disadvantage. For something that is not officially part of the game to alter the dynamics of an official tournament to that extent should not be allowed.

QuoteAdding in a hotkey element screws with all that and allows anyone to switch their gear quickly without putting in any extra effort to do so. People who don't use that tactic are now at a disadvantage. For something that is not officially part of the game to alter the dynamics of an official tournament to that extent should not be allowed.

I know these seems off topic but how would your feel if it was built in.

Then it would be acceptable.

Quote from: Lingus on July 06, 2009, 08:10:13 PM
Then it would be acceptable.

Why is that? Just what to know.

Because then it would be an official function of the game. There would be no valid reason to disallow it from an official tournament. It would be similar to saying you can't jump during an official tournament because it gives certain people who know how to use it correctly an advantage over those that don't. Hot keys would give an advantage to certain people, but if it's an official feature of the game, there's no reason to disallow it. Since it's not though, it is unfair to allow people to use it.

Quote from: Lingus on July 06, 2009, 09:27:56 PM
Because then it would be an official function of the game. There would be no valid reason to disallow it from an official tournament. It would be similar to saying you can't jump during an official tournament because it gives certain people who know how to use it correctly an advantage over those that don't. Hot keys would give an advantage to certain people, but if it's an official feature of the game, there's no reason to disallow it. Since it's not though, it is unfair to allow people to use it.

This is also hypothetical but what if meiun sent out a hotkey program with stick online?

Quote from: ARTgames on July 06, 2009, 10:58:09 PM

Quote from: Lingus on July 06, 2009, 09:27:56 PM
Because then it would be an official function of the game. There would be no valid reason to disallow it from an official tournament. It would be similar to saying you can't jump during an official tournament because it gives certain people who know how to use it correctly an advantage over those that don't. Hot keys would give an advantage to certain people, but if it's an official feature of the game, there's no reason to disallow it. Since it's not though, it is unfair to allow people to use it.

This is also hypothetical but what if meiun sent out a hotkey program with stick online?

Then wouldn't that be completely 'legal' (referring back to the previous argument about the status of hotkey programs)? Because it's what the creator intended. So therefore, there's nothing wrong with it.

Quote from: Epicphail on July 06, 2009, 11:23:47 PM

Quote from: ARTgames on July 06, 2009, 10:58:09 PM

Quote from: Lingus on July 06, 2009, 09:27:56 PM
Because then it would be an official function of the game. There would be no valid reason to disallow it from an official tournament. It would be similar to saying you can't jump during an official tournament because it gives certain people who know how to use it correctly an advantage over those that don't. Hot keys would give an advantage to certain people, but if it's an official feature of the game, there's no reason to disallow it. Since it's not though, it is unfair to allow people to use it.

This is also hypothetical but what if meiun sent out a hotkey program with stick online?

Then wouldn't that be completely 'legal' (referring back to the previous argument about the status of hotkey programs)? Because it's what the creator intended. So therefore, there's nothing wrong with it.

Im not sure what your talking about. are you talking about it would be 'legal' to use them if meiun sent it with the program? i dont what to put keystrokes into your hands so please verify.

Quote from: ARTgames on July 06, 2009, 10:58:09 PM
This is also hypothetical but what if meiun sent out a hotkey program with stick online?

That's a tough one. I would think that the reason why it wasn't included in the actual programming of the game would be because it wasn't intended as part of the official game. That would be considered an official add-on or mod. At that point, it depends on the host of the tournament. If it's an official tournament, it would be up to the moderators to decide the terms and rules of the tournament. Should official add-ons be allowed? There wouldn't be anything wrong with that, it's just up to preferrence.

Why don't we have a system where the players ask eachother if they want to use hotkeys or not, and if both players don't say yes then they won't be used? If hotkeyers wana buttsex other hotkeyers I don't care, but frankly I don't want to have people switching items at lightspeed on me, and it shouldn't be forced on anyone else either.

That way hotkeys Are allowed, but, they also aren't forced on anyone. (Basically the same system used in most tourneys anyways.)

Quote from: Lucifer on July 08, 2009, 02:53:21 PM
Why don't we have a system where the players ask eachother if they want to use hotkeys or not, and if both players don't say yes then they won't be used? If hotkeyers wana buttsex other hotkeyers I don't care, but frankly I don't want to have people switching items at lightspeed on me, and it shouldn't be forced on anyone else either.

Thank God, someone with a brilliant idea.

That's a genious idea! okay we're going with that...=D

Lol really? 3 pages and no one consider this?

Quote from: ARTgames on July 08, 2009, 03:14:33 PM
Lol really? 3 pages and no one consider this?

We were mostly arguing about wether or not hotkeys should be allowed at All in an official tournament, and apparently according to the polls most people feel they should.

Quote from: Lucifer on July 08, 2009, 03:16:09 PM

Quote from: ARTgames on July 08, 2009, 03:14:33 PM
Lol really? 3 pages and no one consider this?

We were mostly arguing about wether or not hotkeys should be allowed at All in an official tournament, and apparently according to the polls most people feel they should.

Lol should have been the first post.