As Mystery suggested, I should post this idea in this topic. With the question of overpowered hats in pvp, I bring up this idea.
If SO were to be expanded into a harder game involving more pve, the best way to balance out hats that would be overpowered in pvp is to nerf them, just for pvp.
Let me say that my previous Blacksmith Boss (http://www.stick-online.com/boards/index.php?topic=1529.0) were to be implemented, drops and all. People said that the hammer's knockback was quite powerful in formal pvp. However, if there was a pvp nerf, the hammer's overall stats would be reduced, and won't knock people over as easily. The same rule applies to all possible "overpowered" hats and weapons that may come in the future, not dealing with the current ones, except for the well criticized Bandit Cover. Facing the facts, that Stick Online is quite a small game, and if it would get more interesting, It would definitely need to expand and update more often when SO3 is released into the public. However, as hats and weapons will always get slightly stronger, they shall always have their benefits and hopefully balance out this game, still making rare items useful to get in future updates to add a bigger challenge to pvp, as weapons of now show improvement over time (Ex- dagger - short sword / whip / katana - Great sword - Slasher (Based on damage output and efficiency based on pvp)).
Now, the Slasher is definitely better than katana, but who is to say that a katana can't beat a slasher? The damage output per second makes these weapons favorable, as well as range (spire dagger has insane damage output per second).
With minor improvements to weapons and hats over time, they should always still be fair with the pvp nerf, so that there will be a possibility of a person with katana beating someone with a spire slasher hyper slicer or whatever. The SSHS will have a greater advantage in pvp to katana, but not as super powerful as it would be in PVE when compared to katana.
Seems like too much work for stick online two and In three who knows. maybe.
Haha, I actually REALLY like this idea, now that you've expanded on it. :D This would provide a grinding incentive to get particular items, at the same time that it balances out weapons. That is, not to say it's impossible to beat people with Katana(I beat several good PVPers with Katana and a mix of Whip/Scythe, and several average PVPers frequently.). I'm all for it.
Quote from: ARTgames on November 22, 2010, 10:15:20 PM
Seems like too much work for stick online two and In three who knows. maybe.
Pretty sure this was a suggestion for SOv3, it's too much work for v2, I agree.
Then its a maybe for me. SO three could be well balance's in pvp and pve without this. And with the addition of skills who knows then?
A lot of work for Meiun. And I don't believe it to be a very good idea anyway.
I'm confuse. Mainly due to the plethora of run-on sentences and grammar mistakes, but also because I just don't see the point.
Quote
If SO were to be expanded into a harder game involving more pve...
I'm sorry, what? Are you starting off your suggestion with a suggestion for the direction SOv3 takes? For the sake of preserving my sanity could we go back to using SOv2 as a basis of thought? There has been no evidence to the contrary that SOv3 will be any different than SOv2 in terms of game-play. How Stick Online could be "expanded" into a harder game with a larger focus on PvE is an entire discussion in and of itself.
Quote
...the best way to balance out hats that would be overpowered in pvp is to nerf them, just for pvp.
Let me say that my previous Blacksmith Boss were to be implemented, drops and all. People said that the hammer's knockback was quite powerful in formal pvp. However, if there was a pvp nerf, the hammer's overall stats would be reduced, and won't knock people over as easily.
How about not having "overpowered" items in the first place? I don't get it, you're developing a system to deal with a problem that isn't supposed to exist. Why do you think Meiun responded to the recent OP claims towards Spire Dagger and Bandit Cover? He obviously didn't mean for any item to be "overpowered", it's just bloody hard to tell if they are or not.
Quote
The same rule applies to all possible "overpowered" hats and weapons that may come in the future, not dealing with the current ones, except for the well criticized Bandit Cover. Facing the facts, that Stick Online is quite a small game, and if it would get more interesting, It would definitely need to expand and update more often when SO3 is released into the public.
Well, shit, now I'm confused. Are you suggesting this idea for SOv2 or SOv3? I mean I assume any idea posted nowadays is for SOv3 unless otherwise stated, as SOv2 is no longer in development, but you speak of the "future", and include the Bandit Cover, so seemingly obviously you're talking about SOv2, right? ...Gahh my brain hurts again.
Quote
However, as hats and weapons will always get slightly stronger, they shall always have their benefits and hopefully balance out this game, still making rare items useful to get in future updates to add a bigger challenge to pvp, as weapons of now show improvement over time (Ex- dagger - short sword / whip / katana - Great sword - Slasher (Based on damage output and efficiency based on pvp)).
Now, the Slasher is definitely better than katana, but who is to say that a katana can't beat a slasher? The damage output per second makes these weapons favorable, as well as range (spire dagger has insane damage output per second).
With minor improvements to weapons and hats over time, they should always still be fair with the pvp nerf, so that there will be a possibility of a person with katana beating someone with a spire slasher hyper slicer or whatever. The SSHS will have a greater advantage in pvp to katana, but not as super powerful as it would be in PVE when compared to katana.
Alright, starting to make more sense here, I still have a headache but that can't be helped. Lets go ahead and throw this "pvp nerf" idea out the window, as I just don't bloody get it, and lets make it clear that this is a suggestion for SOv3.
Now this is an actually practical concept. Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that items should be balanced, every powerful weapon should excel in different aspects, but not completely trump another to the point that it's better than another in every way. But could you explain to me how this is not apparent in SOv2? SS, WH, Katana, GS, these weapons may not be as powerful as some in PvP, but they definitely serve their place in PvE. WH is the most stamina effective out there, and different strength levels can make use of Short Sword and Katana efficiently as well. GS can even fight on par with Slasher, Slasher is by no means blatantly "better" than it.
I'm sorry to pick apart your post, don't take it the wrong way, I'm just having trouble understanding the concept. Please feel free to elaborate more on this "pvp nerf" idea and absolve my confusion...
Quote from: Lucifer on November 23, 2010, 12:12:03 AM
I'm confuse. Mainly due to the plethora of run-on sentences and grammar mistakes, but also because I just don't see the point.
Simply put:
If there are any coming weapons or hats that ruin pvp because they are stronger and more efficient, but are not overpowered for pve, then just nerf it for pvp.
Quote from: Ceroblitz on November 23, 2010, 12:17:13 AM
Quote from: Lucifer on November 23, 2010, 12:12:03 AM
I'm confuse. Mainly due to the plethora of run-on sentences and grammar mistakes, but also because I just don't see the point.
Simply put:
If there are any coming weapons or hats that ruin pvp because they are stronger and more efficient, but are not overpowered for pve, then just nerf it for pvp.
I don't get it! Why would Meiun even think about adding a weapon that will obviously ruin pvp? This has never been done before, why the testicles would he do such a thing now? This whole "pvp nerf" thing is utter nonsense, it doesn't make any logical sense. Your weapon shouldn't suddenly become shittier because you choose to use it on another stick person instead of a 50 foot tall Sand Golem. This is exactly what you're saying; "New weapons should not be overpowered for pve or overpowered for pvp."
Isn't this obvious? You're simply stating that you don't want new items to be overpowered, that's super cool story bro, nobody does, and none of the items are. Every weapon in the game has a counter, every weapon in the game has a different effect in PvE, every weapon is exactly how you wish them to be, and there is no logical reason to expect that to change. The Spire Dagger and Bandit cover may have some kinks in them, but these are not intentional, and if Meiun decides that they are imbalanced they will be fixed, they were not purposefully added to bum!@#$ the pvp system as we know it.
I mean I must be missing something because I don't even get what Mystery or Celson's posts are even pertaining to. How would this be hard to implement? What is there to implement? What would provide a grinding incentive?
I'm not sure why this is such a bad idea. It just allows for higher statted hats and weapons and higher level areas, while still keeping pvp aspect basically the same. You're taking this as keeping everything the same, and thinking that I'm saying "nothing should be overpowered for anything".
Basically, what I want is that there would be higher level areas, maps, equips, and such, and we do not want to just keep adding levels, right?(that would ruin balance as well)
For example,if we have extremely powerful enemies added, which drop a weapon thats effective and strong enough to kill the monsters in that area, as well as hats to keep your defenses and offenses up. Now these weapons and hats are overpowered in pvp as they add great stats, but are good enough for that area. Now when you pvp these weapons and hats are to be brought down a notch, so then it would be more fair. These weapons and hats are just a new addition away from the normal level for pve, and when you pvp, they're brought back to the normal level for a better balance in pvp.
People are only whining about bc and spire for pvp, not pve, which is why I brought this up..
Thank you! I never said the idea was bad, I said I was confused, and merely wished you could clarify for me. I don't see why you're assuming that items from each area are going to be overpowered, however. This game has always had an "upgrading" system to its items, where some are blatantly better at PvP than others. As a new player you start off with the capability of easily finding Daggers and Short Swords, and you transcend up the tiers of weapons until you reach the top. For example, in terms of short range weapons, Stick/Hatchet -> Dagger -> Short Sword -> Scythe -> Katana -> Spire Dagger. This tier system is also apparent in hats, for example, vit hats. Blue Banana -> Knight Helm -> Skull Mask -> Dragoon Helm -> Dark Knight Helm.
There is an extremely substantial difference between the Stick and the Spire Dagger, or the Blue Bandana and the Dark Knight helm, but this is on purpose. This gives the player an element of increasing in power and capability, you can see and feel the difference between each tier of weapons, and you strive for the next. This gives you a reason to level, to play, so you can become more powerful and reach the next area, where you can obtain those items and move on to repeat the cycle, until you're level 100 with the best items. The problem with SOv2 is that even level 100s are having difficulty obtaining items meant for their level.
You wish to remove this aspect of progress, so that the PvP system is balanced no matter what tiers are matched. But this doesn't make any sense, each tier of items has a substantial effect over the other. By your reasoning, why shouldn't underpowered items be brought up a notch to this "normal level"? A Short Sword is much more powerful and rare than a Stick, but should it be nerfed down to the Stick's power? Your "pvp nerf" system is just an overcomplicated repetition of my rant, that those without the best weapons are at a disadvantage against those with them, and the current system of balancing rare weapons by adding rare counters doesn't add up.
There is a much simpler way to go about balancing luck vs skill, and that's increasing the drop rates. That's it. Obtaining items in this game should be easier the higher level you are, and if the items that effect PvP the most are still incredibly difficult to find at the highest possible level, something is wrong. The rarest items should not be the most PvP viable, but instead reserved for convenience effects. Weapon effects like Multiple Strike, or Hat effects like the Gravity Manipulation. Desirable items to achieve, but not necessary to PvP with. It is my hope that this is the direction Meiun plans for SO.
I guess so, but this pertains to items that make progress way in high level maps (like gm level powerful weapons), and not current items. I meant to balance after a certain point, where you have 150 stam and 200 damage weapons, with 10 agi 10 str 10 vit 10 int 10 def hats.
But the game as of now, is fine. The only reason why there are item tiers is because some tiers are easier to get than others. Basically, I'm talking into the the far developed SO, where 2hkos are easily possible, since the game will probably be more item dependent. I just thought that having some new, stronger items only nerfed for pvp would allow stronger items for pve.
Later, when there are too many tiers and the level cap does not match out, thats when I think that this may be necessary to get pvp into shape, unless everyone has that certain weapon / hat at that level.
I guess that only certain items that will exist shall have pvp nerfs..
I see no reason to believe that SOv3 would ever get that unbalanced. There is no reason for new items to continually add to the top tier, and hopefully with each area the additions will be varied, and the item's actual "tier" placement questionable. Infact, screw the whole concept of tiers, it is my hope that SOv3 will abandon the need for such a phrase, that each stat will be balanced enough that there is no one specific "best" hat, but multiple hats for multiple builds. Again, there is no reason for items to continually increase in power, there is plenty enough work to be done providing a plethora of items, weapons, and SKILLS!!!, so that every stat is viable.
To plan for an undesirable end is to bring about such an end, why not instead plan for an end that you desire?
Yeah I just made that up, and yeah it's really cheesy.
Dude, this topic is a great idea! I would love to PVP with Nerf Guns!
Seriously though, SO2 is long past the point of fixing, and SO3 is long before the point of breaking. The problem was that SO2 wasn't sufficiently planned out, and people leveled faster than the game was updated, and new updates were scaled with these leveling people in mind. If you will assume that the development team learns from their mistakes, this idea is fairly pointless. Alternatively, Meiun might think of placing level caps that he can progressively raise as new content updates are released, thus keeping the scale from area to area in control, and subsequently making monsters, weapons, hats, and the economy much more smooth and balanced.
"Seriously though, SO2 is long past the point of fixing, and SO3 is long before the point of breaking"
I like that. I also agree with the rest of you post. I'm sure meiun has learned a lot.
I'd just like to make this phrase. "Fix it now otherwise it will get worse"
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 04:41:14 PM
I'd just like to make this phrase. "Fix it now otherwise it will get worse"
"Can't fix what isn't broken."
See, I can do it too. 'Cept mine is relevent.
Quote from: Chaos on November 23, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 04:41:14 PM
I'd just like to make this phrase. "Fix it now otherwise it will get worse"
"Can't fix what isn't broken."
See, I can do it too. 'Cept mine is relevent.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing" Meaning it would of needed fixing and
was broken. So you failed.
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 06:07:20 PM
Quote from: Chaos on November 23, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 04:41:14 PM
I'd just like to make this phrase. "Fix it now otherwise it will get worse"
"Can't fix what isn't broken."
See, I can do it too. 'Cept mine is relevent.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing" Meaning it would of needed fixing and was broken. So you failed.
That statement does not compute!
Quote from: Celson on November 23, 2010, 06:11:45 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 06:07:20 PM
Quote from: Chaos on November 23, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 04:41:14 PM
I'd just like to make this phrase. "Fix it now otherwise it will get worse"
"Can't fix what isn't broken."
See, I can do it too. 'Cept mine is relevent.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing" Meaning it would of needed fixing and was broken. So you failed.
That statement does not compute!
Yes it does.
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 06:12:51 PM
Quote from: Celson on November 23, 2010, 06:11:45 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 06:07:20 PM
Quote from: Chaos on November 23, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 04:41:14 PM
I'd just like to make this phrase. "Fix it now otherwise it will get worse"
"Can't fix what isn't broken."
See, I can do it too. 'Cept mine is relevent.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing" Meaning it would of needed fixing and was broken. So you failed.
That statement does not compute!
Yes it does.
I don't understand what your trying to say either.
Quote from: Turkey on November 23, 2010, 06:32:04 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 06:12:51 PM
Quote from: Celson on November 23, 2010, 06:11:45 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 06:07:20 PM
Quote from: Chaos on November 23, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 04:41:14 PM
I'd just like to make this phrase. "Fix it now otherwise it will get worse"
"Can't fix what isn't broken."
See, I can do it too. 'Cept mine is relevent.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing" Meaning it would of needed fixing and was broken. So you failed.
That statement does not compute!
Yes it does.
I don't understand what your trying to say either.
I was saying if you don't fix the edge that makes people better at pvp with drops it will just get worse. Chaos was saying you can't fix what is not broken but that doesn't even make sense when there is something broken.
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 06:07:20 PM
Quote from: Chaos on November 23, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 04:41:14 PM
I'd just like to make this phrase. "Fix it now otherwise it will get worse"
"Can't fix what isn't broken."
See, I can do it too. 'Cept mine is relevent.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing" Meaning it would of needed fixing and was broken. So you failed.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing". Meaning it is long past the point where it can be fixed. That's the reason Meiun decided to make SO3. So you failed. -_-
You can't fix what isn't broken, aka, SO3, because it isn't even out yet. It is impossible to have something 'broken' when it isn't even yet built.
If you read and comprehended my first post in the first place, we could have saved ourselves 7 pointless posts.
The answer to this problem is that items are balanced. Basically exactly what Lucifer is saying. The solution is not to make all items worse when you use them in PVP. The solution is to have balanced items. If there are "strong" items, there are other "strong" items that people can use. When people go to PVP, they use those items. If both parties in the match are using well balanced items, then there's no need to nerf anything.
The idea of nerfing items so that everything is balanced in pvp is just ludicrous. That would make for a very bland and uninteresting game. Might as well go back to SO1 with no items or stats. Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch Punch!
BORED.
Quote from: Chaos on November 23, 2010, 06:48:49 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 06:07:20 PM
Quote from: Chaos on November 23, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 04:41:14 PM
I'd just like to make this phrase. "Fix it now otherwise it will get worse"
"Can't fix what isn't broken."
See, I can do it too. 'Cept mine is relevent.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing" Meaning it would of needed fixing and was broken. So you failed.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing". Meaning it is long past the point where it can be fixed. That's the reason Meiun decided to make SO3. So you failed. -_-
You can't fix what isn't broken, aka, SO3, because it isn't even out yet. It is impossible to have something 'broken' when it isn't even yet built.
If you read and comprehended my first post in the first place, we could have saved ourselves 7 pointless posts.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing". Meaning it is long past the point where it can be fixed. That's the reason Meiun decided to make SO3. So you failed. -_-"
If we fix it now then it will stop getting worse yet we are still here making suggestions and ideas for SO2.
"You can't fix what isn't broken, aka, SO3, because it isn't even out yet. It is impossible to have something 'broken' when it isn't even yet built."
We're talking about SO2 how dare you bring SO3 just so you had a response to what i said..
:DD:D
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 07:20:29 PM
Quote from: Chaos on November 23, 2010, 06:48:49 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 06:07:20 PM
Quote from: Chaos on November 23, 2010, 04:43:40 PM
Quote from: Forum on November 23, 2010, 04:41:14 PM
I'd just like to make this phrase. "Fix it now otherwise it will get worse"
"Can't fix what isn't broken."
See, I can do it too. 'Cept mine is relevent.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing" Meaning it would of needed fixing and was broken. So you failed.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing". Meaning it is long past the point where it can be fixed. That's the reason Meiun decided to make SO3. So you failed. -_-
You can't fix what isn't broken, aka, SO3, because it isn't even out yet. It is impossible to have something 'broken' when it isn't even yet built.
If you read and comprehended my first post in the first place, we could have saved ourselves 7 pointless posts.
"SO2 is long past the point of fixing". Meaning it is long past the point where it can be fixed. That's the reason Meiun decided to make SO3. So you failed. -_-"
If we fix it now then it will stop getting worse yet we are still here making suggestions and ideas for SO2.
"You can't fix what isn't broken, aka, SO3, because it isn't even out yet. It is impossible to have something 'broken' when it isn't even yet built."
We're talking about SO2 how dare you bring SO3 just so you had a response to what i said..
:DD:D
SO2 is dead. It is no longer supported, as Meiun has stated numerous times. The 'fix' is starting over from scratch. Thus, I am and have always been talking about SO3, which doesn't need to be fixed. Yet.
Quote from: ARTgames on November 22, 2010, 10:15:20 PM
Seems like too much work for stick online two and In three who knows. maybe.
case pvpmode
{
when true:
player.hat.str = player.hat.str / 1.5;
player.hat.agi = player.hat.agi / 1.5;
player.hat.vit = player.hat.vit / 1.5;
player.hat.int = player.hat.int / 1.5;
break;
when false:
break;
}
So if that has been your idea, I don't see the work, sorry.
Your assuming he uses a switch statement for his inventory. I know personally I would never use a switch statement in my inventory as there is no usefulness to it, at least comparing it to what I do do. So I doubt he would in his.
Quote from: CherryPie on November 24, 2010, 04:34:44 AM
Quote from: ARTgames on November 22, 2010, 10:15:20 PM
Seems like too much work for stick online two and In three who knows. maybe.
case pvpmode
{
when true:
player.hat.str = player.hat.str / 1.5;
player.hat.agi = player.hat.agi / 1.5;
player.hat.vit = player.hat.vit / 1.5;
player.hat.int = player.hat.int / 1.5;
break;
when false:
break;
}
So if that has been your idea, I don't see the work, sorry.
(Your code really does not make sense btw. what language it that? It looks kinda like a switch statement.)
First you don't know how the item system works and whether or not If it lends it's self to easy change like that.
Second the main hard part is that your basically doubling the number of items in the game. And giving new stats and balancing every item in the game for its pvp/pve sounds like work to me.
And last, On top of that on a game that's no longer in main development. I rather him work on giving new stats to weapons on SO3 than make all new ones for SO2.
Quote from: ARTgames on November 24, 2010, 11:41:57 AM
Quote from: CherryPie on November 24, 2010, 04:34:44 AM
Quote from: ARTgames on November 22, 2010, 10:15:20 PM
Seems like too much work for stick online two and In three who knows. maybe.
case pvpmode
{
when true:
player.hat.str = player.hat.str / 1.5;
player.hat.agi = player.hat.agi / 1.5;
player.hat.vit = player.hat.vit / 1.5;
player.hat.int = player.hat.int / 1.5;
break;
when false:
break;
}
So if that has been your idea, I don't see the work, sorry.
(Your code really does not make sense btw. what language it that? It looks kinda like a switch statement.)
First you don't know how the item system works and whether or not If it lends it's self to easy change like that.
Second the main hard part is that your basically doubling the number of items in the game. And giving new stats and balancing every item in the game for its pvp/pve sounds like work to me.
And last, On top of that on a game that's no longer in main development. I rather him work on giving new stats to weapons on SO3 than make all new ones for SO2.
i think we was just typing to say little codes like that are not a lot of hard work. correct me if im wrong.
Quote from: havok on November 30, 2010, 04:01:32 AM
Quote from: ARTgames on November 24, 2010, 11:41:57 AM
Quote from: CherryPie on November 24, 2010, 04:34:44 AM
Quote from: ARTgames on November 22, 2010, 10:15:20 PM
Seems like too much work for stick online two and In three who knows. maybe.
case pvpmode
{
when true:
player.hat.str = player.hat.str / 1.5;
player.hat.agi = player.hat.agi / 1.5;
player.hat.vit = player.hat.vit / 1.5;
player.hat.int = player.hat.int / 1.5;
break;
when false:
break;
}
So if that has been your idea, I don't see the work, sorry.
(Your code really does not make sense btw. what language it that? It looks kinda like a switch statement.)
First you don't know how the item system works and whether or not If it lends it's self to easy change like that.
Second the main hard part is that your basically doubling the number of items in the game. And giving new stats and balancing every item in the game for its pvp/pve sounds like work to me.
And last, On top of that on a game that's no longer in main development. I rather him work on giving new stats to weapons on SO3 than make all new ones for SO2.
i think we was just typing to say little codes like that are not a lot of hard work. correct me if im wrong.
correct, and @art: what are you talking? No items do have to be physically doubled, like I showed in my example, the weapons can be dynamically modified when entering/leaving pvp mode. Of course all factor values do have to be changed and rebalanced, but that is the case if you just weaker the weps for all modes, too. What I am saying is, that I do not really like the whole idea, anyway.
I used the words case/when instead of switch/case to clearer, because I wanted everyone to understand my thought.