Uh-oh, I don't want to heat up a discussion, that ends in a flaming war between spire & gs users, but after the last adjustment, i did a few damage tests with Gufi.
Results:
With Spire he did 30 damage on me, with Slasher 57 & with GS 62, we couldn't test IS, but it probably would've been something around 70-75.
So what I am worrying now is the fact that Spire is now definitly the worst of the 3 A-Tier weps (Spire, Slasher & IS).
Why do I come to this conclusion?
Well, while fighting against gufi, I found out, that it's absolutely impossible to do 3 and rather rarely possible to do 2 hits against slasher users, while they are attacking once.
So if you have a slasher and enough agi, you will probably end up as a winner against spire users.
Well I'm fine with that, since slasher was supposed to be the spire killer, but now with the weakened damage, I am worrying that even IS users do not have to be scared of the spire anylonger, because they can easily outdamage it.
Meiun may have lowered the damage only slightly, but a spire user needs way more hits than an IS user to knockout the enemy, so 2 damage per hit often results in a 20 if not more hp advantage for the none-spire users.
I concur. Personally, I feel like Spire Dagger just needed the attack speed nerf and probably the complete removal of the +3 AGI equivalent speed bonus. With the removal of those 2 things, damage would be fine the way it was.
I'm fine with the weakened spire. It's a dagger, not a giant sword. I was actually pretty suprised by how strong it was when it came out. Before the public server closed, Lucifer and I were pretty evenly matched in pvp. When I came back and fought against him later, he absolutely wiped the floor with me using a spire. Rarer items should be stronger (i.e. IS and LSB).
I lowered the damage by ONE, was hardly nerfed at all really. The spire clearly needs more hits, but it is capable of doing that seeing as it is still the fastest weapon. It's just requires a different approach than other weapons.
Quote from: Jiggy on December 28, 2010, 06:42:09 PM
I'm fine with the weakened spire. It's a dagger, not a giant sword. I was actually pretty suprised by how strong it was when it came out. Before the public server closed, Lucifer and I were pretty evenly matched in pvp. When I came back and fought against him later, he absolutely wiped the floor with me using a spire. Rarer items should be stronger (i.e. IS and LSB).
Uhh yeah, im with you. But then I suggest a damage nerf for the GS aswell. (OH NOES, HE DID SAY IT!!)
seriously 1 GS hit does more damage than 2 Spire hits, but Spire has now not enough speed to hit the opponent 3 times, while he swings his GS once.
And yup, Spire is definitely rarer than the GS (especially with the drop chances from SG + Snowman included).
Quote from: Meiun on December 28, 2010, 06:46:52 PM
I lowered the damage by ONE, was hardly nerfed at all really. The spire clearly needs more hits, but it is capable of doing that seeing as it is still the fastest weapon. It's just requires a different approach than other weapons.
I remember 2 Spire hits doing more damage than 1 GS hit for me & I just tested on Mystery doing 34 dmg with spire and 72 with GS, which means for my build, the damage was decreased by 3 at least. :(
I really feel that you are over-analyzing this. As soon as anyone heres about something getting weakened they automatically assume the worst. I really barely did much at all to the spire. The speed between hits on the spire is exactly the same as it was. I only very SLIGHTLY slowed the animation speed itself, and lowered the damage by ONE.
A spire user can also not worry about a miss. Larger/slower sword users can be destroyed by a spire if they dont get a hit.
I'm just awesome.
</funnypost>
Quote from: igufed on December 28, 2010, 08:57:40 PM
I'm just awesome.
</funnypost>
Who are you and what have you done with igufed?
Quote from: CherryPie on December 28, 2010, 06:47:16 PM
Quote from: Jiggy on December 28, 2010, 06:42:09 PM
I'm fine with the weakened spire. It's a dagger, not a giant sword. I was actually pretty suprised by how strong it was when it came out. Before the public server closed, Lucifer and I were pretty evenly matched in pvp. When I came back and fought against him later, he absolutely wiped the floor with me using a spire. Rarer items should be stronger (i.e. IS and LSB).
Uhh yeah, im with you. But then I suggest a damage nerf for the GS aswell. (OH NOES, HE DID SAY IT!!)
seriously 1 GS hit does more damage than 2 Spire hits, but Spire has now not enough speed to hit the opponent 3 times, while he swings his GS once.
And yup, Spire is definitely rarer than the GS (especially with the drop chances from SG + Snowman included).
Quote from: Meiun on December 28, 2010, 06:46:52 PM
I lowered the damage by ONE, was hardly nerfed at all really. The spire clearly needs more hits, but it is capable of doing that seeing as it is still the fastest weapon. It's just requires a different approach than other weapons.
I remember 2 Spire hits doing more damage than 1 GS hit for me & I just tested on Mystery doing 34 dmg with spire and 72 with GS, which means for my build, the damage was decreased by 3 at least. :(
I agree with Cherry, slight damage nerf for the GS would do some good. Even -1 damage would be fine.
How about this..
Practice.
If you pvp once a week, you are not going to beat everybody. If you rarely vs a certain weapon and lose to it, don't make a post claiming BS on the weapon you were using and demand changes.
I used spire vs seifer's slasher and won every time. I used spire vs his hyperion and won. I used my slasher vs your spire (so-crappy) and won. Learn to use your weapon effectively vs your opponents weapon before demanding things get changed to suit you.
I think Spire is a bit weak, but then again I have to compensate for my 20str/23vit. I have beaten tanks in pvp, but I really need all the help I can get. But what really bugs me is pve, where Spire is pretty much useless. I'd really like the Spire to have a good damage/stam ratio.
Cutting the stam used 1 would not be all that bad I think, and add up to be fair.
~Aqua
I seriously think the spire dagger is fine the way it is now. 1 gs hit really SHOULD do more damage than 2 spire hits.
For a GS user to beat a spire dagger user, he must swing first. In that time the spire user can get around 1-2 (maybe 3) counter hits back. If the spire user is fast enough, he could dodge the swing and counter with 1-2 hits. If the GS user is talented enough to go 1 gs hit for 2 spire hits for the whole fight, then he can win it. But in most cases the spire user will win.
If in the case that the GS user doesn't swing first, then the spire user can swing first and easily pull of 3 hits if the gs user counters.
And you should also consider the fact that Gufi is very talented and also has a BC. So no wonder you can't get 3 hits on him.
Leave the spire dagger be.
IM fine wit it being nerfed as long as i don't have the damn wep, but if i happen to obtain it i'll want its damage increased to be decent.
Quote from: Meiun on December 28, 2010, 06:46:52 PM
I lowered the damage by ONE, was hardly nerfed at all really. The spire clearly needs more hits, but it is capable of doing that seeing as it is still the fastest weapon. It's just requires a different approach than other weapons.
By different approach im guessing you mean you have to get up close and it changes how you pvp up vs gs,slasher and is.
That the point i was going to throw out there. Ether any tho Meiun sets the stats of the weapons and im sure he has a reason for setting them how he did. all so didnt lucifer win th torny with a spire?(idk i wasnt there) if its lowed by 1 i dont think its that big a difference lol :P
Always going to be Something for SO players to bitch and moan about. You asked it to be less powerful, it's less powerful, I'm confused as to what you're surprised about.
I haven't even noticed any difference whatsoever personally, but even if it is now the worst of the top tier weapons, well, isn't that what you wanted...? In this game, power is based on rarity, and the Spire Dagger was arguably the most powerful weapon, whilst being the easiest to obtain out of all of the rare weapons. If these minor changes have caused it to go down a notch, isn't this to be appreciated?
How about instead of complaining about Meiun doing what you wanted, you could instead, I don't know... thank him for listening to and acting upon the community's grievances?
Maybe that's a bit too much to ask.
One more comment on this.
If you're judging spire solely on its statistics, you don't know jack about using it. It is not a weapon made for two-for-one tanking, this is a narrow minded and ignorant mindset. The spire is made to be danced with, to leap around your enemy and force them to react, to jab them when they make the slightest mistake. On top of this, I don't believe any weapon is meant to be used by itself. Each weapon excels at different situations, and surprising your opponent with the right weapon at the right moment is the best strategy there is. I just don't see the point in comparing weapons via statistics when PvP is so much more than that.
Quote from: Lucifer on December 29, 2010, 03:08:55 AM
Always going to be Something for SO players to bitch and moan about. You asked it to be less powerful, it's less powerful, I'm confused as to what you're surprised about.
I haven't even noticed any difference whatsoever personally, but even if it is now the worst of the top tier weapons, well, isn't that what you wanted...? In this game, power is based on rarity, and the Spire Dagger was arguably the most powerful weapon, whilst being the easiest to obtain out of all of the rare weapons. If these minor changes have caused it to go down a notch, isn't this to be appreciated?
How about instead of complaining about Meiun doing what you wanted, you could instead, I don't know... thank him for listening to and acting upon the community's grievances?
Maybe that's a bit too much to ask.
One more comment on this.
If you're judging spire solely on its statistics, you don't know jack about using it. It is not a weapon made for two-for-one tanking, this is a narrow minded and ignorant mindset. The spire is made to be danced with, to leap around your enemy and force them to react, to jab them when they make the slightest mistake. On top of this, I don't believe any weapon is meant to be used by itself. Each weapon excels at different situations, and surprising your opponent with the right weapon at the right moment is the best strategy there is. I just don't see the point in comparing weapons via statistics when PvP is so much more than that.
What he said.
I honestly didn't see that much of a difference. I don't mind, I just play for fun.