Finally, that son of a bitch is dead! Great !@#$ing day in history! I'm just waiting for Obama to come on and make it official/talk about it..should be soon..
Well, that was unexpected.
I saw "Special Report" on TV and was like, "oh probably something stupid". Ha, was definitely not expecting the words "Osama Bin Laden killed" across the screen. Good job, took long enough but good job.
I only wish I could be outside the White House screaming my ass off with all those people.
Chaos found this on 4chan:
"Osama should never have used his real address on PSN"
Yes, the 0-60 MPH in a dodge challenger on slick roads is well under 5 seconds (probably closer to 4 with tire spin and all), I can attest. Finally, after over five years of active duty military and continued contributions to finding the !@#$er, we've finally put a bullet worth something in his swine-ridden ass crack. Victory has never tasted so sweet. I will gladly empty my bank account right here and now to pay in beer for ever US Soldier who took his ass down. Let me know Hell tastes you air wasting scum!
I honestly care about this as much as you Americans care about the royal wedding. lol Not that I care about the wedding either.
all i can say is...
death certificate plz
edit: obama's addressing of osama's death for anybody who wants to see it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsIBEPZSpWc
People are going to hate me for this comment.
Osama Bin laden was still a human. He honestly thought that what he was doing was righteous and correct. He wasn't evil, he's not going to hell, he was simply brainwashed at a young age by his family, culture, and religion. Anyone that speaks out against him must first look inside themselves and their own biases that were nailed into their skulls at a young age. That tinge of racism you feel towards others, your unwillingness to see gays as equals, your feelings of superiority to women as well as people with less cash in their bank account. The foundation of these beliefs and the beliefs of Osama Bin Laden stem from the same area, and anyone who can pass judgment on this man better take a look inside themselves first. He is no different than millions of others around the world who have let their culture corrupt their intelligence.
Also, Bread. No deathers in this topic pls.
I don't know what a "deather" is, but I'm serious. I'm a a bit of a conspiracy believer, and I want proof of this. Obama could easily use this to boost his own campaign.
Quote from: Bread on May 02, 2011, 02:07:37 AM
I don't know what a "deather" is, but I'm serious. I may be a bit of a conspirator, but I want proof of this. Obama could easily use this to boost his own campaign.
It was a joke. Ever heard of a birther?
I can see why you'd want proof, but it would be very foolish of Obama to use this to boost his campaign. He's too intelligent to take a silly risk like that.
EDIT: Nevermind...
Quote from: Jake on May 02, 2011, 02:10:50 AM
Quote from: Bread on May 02, 2011, 02:07:37 AM
I don't know what a "deather" is, but I'm serious. I may be a bit of a conspirator, but I want proof of this. Obama could easily use this to boost his own campaign.
It was a joke. Ever heard of a birther?
I can see why you'd want proof, but it would be very foolish of Obama to use this to boost his campaign. He's too intelligent to take a silly risk like that.
Yeah, my bad.. Just had to look up the definition on Urban Dictionary, lol. I also had to edit my second post from conspirator to conspiracy believer, seeing as I only believe in conspiracies, not commit them..
Anyhow, that may be true. I am just hoping the government will provide some shape or form of proof that he was in fact, taken down May 1st, 2011. I hope I get it.
According to WikiLeaks, Al Qaeda have stated that if Osama get's killed then they will let off a number of Bombs they have hidden around Europe and that they have a way of poisoning lots of Americans, now this could just be them making things up to try and protect him, however, it is definitely possible that parts if not all of this are true.
As said on 4chan, shouldn't have put his real address on PSN.
Quote from: Bread on May 02, 2011, 02:07:37 AM
I don't know what a "deather" is, but I'm serious. I'm a a bit of a conspiracy believer, and I want proof of this. Obama could easily use this to boost his own campaign.
Wouldn't surprise me. !@#$in politicians are a bunch of liars. Who knows, maybe the cunts been dead for years. Maybe he's not even dead at all. Who knows?
I do know you can't believe what your president or the media tells you. So full of shit. Pissesm e off.
I don't know, for some reason I can't really believe this. I heard he was thrown into the sea after he was killed, so I guess we won't see any proof? Plus, it could have been any arabic dude, they all look the same to me... So I wouldn't be too sure about his death.
No matter if he's dead or not, we will see a reaction from them very soon (in form of bombs).
Quote from: foG on May 02, 2011, 08:40:13 AM
I don't know, for some reason I can't really believe this. I heard he was thrown into the sea after he was killed, so I guess we won't see any proof? Plus, it could have been any arabic dude, they all look the same to me... So I wouldn't be too sure about his death.
No matter if his dead or not, we will see a reaction from them very soon (in form of bombs).
They claimed they have his body in American soldier's custody. Jake, stop being a troll.
EDIT: I stand corrected. America has taken the upper ground and buried him at sea apparently (according to CNN). They're undergoing forensic testing to test for a DNA match since his ass was so jacked up that he apparently was unrecognizable. A lot of Muslims believe that they need to be buried within a single day of their death, so we did the right thing there, giving him a slight taste of peace and fairness in his morbidly corrupt life. We learned from our mistakes in the past, i.e. Charlemagne P?ralte.
EDIT 2: The DNA is a match. Apparently they matched it with brain matter from his sister.
Not trolling.
Quote from: Scotty on May 02, 2011, 08:44:58 AM
Quote from: foG on May 02, 2011, 08:40:13 AM
I don't know, for some reason I can't really believe this. I heard he was thrown into the sea after he was killed, so I guess we won't see any proof? Plus, it could have been any arabic dude, they all look the same to me... So I wouldn't be too sure about his death.
No matter if his dead or not, we will see a reaction from them very soon (in form of bombs).
They claimed they have his body in American soldier's custody. Jake, stop being a troll.
EDIT: I stand corrected. America has taken the upper ground and buried him at sea apparently (according to CNN). They're undergoing forensic testing to test for a DNA match since his ass was so jacked up that he apparently was unrecognizable. A lot of Muslims believe that they need to be buried within a single day of their death, so we did the right thing there, giving him a slight taste of peace and fairness in his morbidly corrupt life. We learned from our mistakes in the past, i.e. Charlemagne P?ralte.
EDIT 2: The DNA is a match. Apparently they matched it with brain matter from his sister.
Maybe the sister is a lie. Them al-qaide dudes are pretty much up to every trick...
The mistake with your metaphorical "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" theory is that he was in fact very evil. He himself would never believe it as you stated, as that is what he was brought up and corrupted enough to actually believe, and he may not go to his version of hell, but I'll be damned if I'm sharing the same virgins his soiled danglies touched. In such a generalized sense, you could also allude to Hitler not being evil because he was only doing what he believed in when he sent off millions of jews to be executed, and you'd be hard pressed to find one rational person who would say that he was sane. Usama was very evil, and had direct ties to the slaughtering of over 200 people in an embassy bombing, and made it indisputably clear that it was "Every Muslim's duty to kill an American". What makes him even more evil and dangerous is that he was a very influential person, able to motivate thousands to join in his cause.
We all have evils, sure, and I definitely agree with the thought that before we throw out accusations and slander, we should first look inward and think before we speak, but none of that denounces the fact that Usama was a very, very evil man. That is why I applaud our efforts to calm this down and do what's right with burying him within the customary day of his death. I guarantee if we pulled a wild west stunt and toted his head around on a pike, we'd most definitely receive retaliation. I might laugh at midgets and visualize every red head I see butt-ass naked (butt ass-naked for Chaos), but I wish death to no man. Not to say I don't have a large grin across my face when reading the obituaries some times, or that if I am forced to defend myself in a life-or-death situation that I will fight tooth and nail if necessary, but I cannot be that hypocritically arrogant to say I wish I was in a padded room with an unarmed terrorist and I had anything more than a cap-gun.
EDIT: I guarantee to all the defiant deathers out there that if he is alive, we will know within a day or two when Al-Jazeera shows him in his next feature length "Gotchya good fokkers!" video that he would gladly tape. Believe you me that when we say he is dead, that is a very large accusation that the American government can't afford to fok up, and have gone the extra mile to ensure was stated with certainty. Heck, it wouldn't surprise me as much as that guy loves to hear his own voice that he even had a prepared tape that he would have sent out after his death to make people believe he is still alive.
Quote from: Scotty on May 02, 2011, 12:38:55 PM
The mistake with your metaphorical "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" theory is that he was in fact very evil.
Quote from: Scotty on May 02, 2011, 12:38:55 PM
In such a generalized sense, you could also allude to Hitler not being evil because he was only doing what he believed in when he sent off millions of jews to be executed, and you'd be hard pressed to find one rational person who would say that he was sane.
We both have very different views on this topic, so I'm going to make my point and then recede. My belief is that no one is actually evil, just a combination of stupidity/insanity. All of Hitlers "evil" deeds could quite possibly be the result of a psychological issue that he himself has no control of. Osama is a brainwashed idiot that doesn't have the mental power to realize that he was blindly following a book that didn't award him anything but a grave. These people aren't devilish fiends with eyes that glow red in the dark, and it seems many of us forget that from time to time.
Quote from: Jake on May 02, 2011, 01:22:40 PM
Quote from: Scotty on May 02, 2011, 12:38:55 PM
The mistake with your metaphorical "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" theory is that he was in fact very evil.
Quote from: Scotty on May 02, 2011, 12:38:55 PM
In such a generalized sense, you could also allude to Hitler not being evil because he was only doing what he believed in when he sent off millions of jews to be executed, and you'd be hard pressed to find one rational person who would say that he was sane.
We both have very different views on this topic, so I'm going to make my point and then recede. My belief is that no one is actually evil, just a combination of stupidity/insanity. All of Hitlers "evil" deeds could quite possibly be the result of a psychological issue that he himself has no control of. Osama is a brainwashed idiot that doesn't have the mental power to realize that he was blindly following a book that didn't award him anything but a grave. These people aren't devilish fiends with eyes that glow red in the dark, and it seems many of us forget that from time to time.
I don't think our mindsets are that far off. We both don't disagree that he was a tyrant, and I'll never claim to him holding a flaming pitchfork with horns sticking out of his head, just a matter that I don't think he was actually brainwashed, as his childhood and upbringing could only be described as "bastard red-headed stepchild", with a desire for retaliation after being treated like crap. Now his 9 year old underlings he'd influence, yes. Those effers are definitely brainwashed.
I'm glad that this disgusting man was brought to justice.
But... I think Al Qaeda will remain just as powerful without him. I believe all we did was flick a block off of the top of the pyramid. Someone just as corrupt and evil may take his place. Won't be just be out to hunt the next leader and the leader after that and on and on and on?
Quote from: Jake on May 02, 2011, 01:22:40 PM
We both have very different views on this topic, so I'm going to make my point and then recede. My belief is that no one is actually evil, just a combination of stupidity/insanity.
I kinda agree but not exactly. I agree that no one is actually evil but not for the same reason. We just make up and call other people that based on are made up opinion. There is no wrong and right just people doing things and other people reacting to it based off who they are. Its just an opinion he is a bad person. And its one shard by many people. And i'm not saying I don't share it.
Quote from: ARTgames on May 02, 2011, 05:18:25 PM
Quote from: Jake on May 02, 2011, 01:22:40 PM
We both have very different views on this topic, so I'm going to make my point and then recede. My belief is that no one is actually evil, just a combination of stupidity/insanity.
I kinda agree but not exactly. I agree that no one is actually evil but not for the same reason. We just make up and call other people that based on are made up opinion. There is no wrong and right just people doing things and other people reacting to it based off who they are. Its just an opinion he is a bad person. And its one shard by many people. And i'm not saying I don't share it.
I agree.
Quote from: Jake on May 02, 2011, 01:22:40 PM
Quote from: Scotty on May 02, 2011, 12:38:55 PM
The mistake with your metaphorical "He who is without sin, cast the first stone" theory is that he was in fact very evil.
Quote from: Scotty on May 02, 2011, 12:38:55 PM
In such a generalized sense, you could also allude to Hitler not being evil because he was only doing what he believed in when he sent off millions of jews to be executed, and you'd be hard pressed to find one rational person who would say that he was sane.
We both have very different views on this topic, so I'm going to make my point and then recede. My belief is that no one is actually evil, just a combination of stupidity/insanity. All of Hitlers "evil" deeds could quite possibly be the result of a psychological issue that he himself has no control of. Osama is a brainwashed idiot that doesn't have the mental power to realize that he was blindly following a book that didn't award him anything but a grave. These people aren't devilish fiends with eyes that glow red in the dark, and it seems many of us forget that from time to time.
To be honest I think that's kind of ignorant (or maybe optimistic) of you. You really believe that people don't have a choice? That if someone is raised wrong that they are going to end up this way and they can't be blamed because it's not their fault they had bad parents (or whatever). It's kind of a cop out. There are people who are raised pretty crappily and turn out to be very good people. Only a very small percentage of the world turns out to be as horrible as someone like Osama Bin Laden. That has to show that it's really just their choice. Sure, if it weren't for their upbringing they wouldn't have had these ideas, but that's not the reason why they became mass murderers. They did that because they made a choice to become that way.
Quote from: HeroicHero on May 02, 2011, 02:16:00 PM
I'm glad that this disgusting man was brought to justice.
But... I think Al Qaeda will remain just as powerful without him. I believe all we did was flick a block off of the top of the pyramid. Someone just as corrupt and evil may take his place. Won't be just be out to hunt the next leader and the leader after that and on and on and on?
You also have to look at all of the other things that have been done to stop Al Qaeda. Bringing down Bin Laden is really just the icing on the cake. By itself, you would be right, but there's a lot more going on.
Expect retaliation..
Quote from: Lingus on May 02, 2011, 05:59:23 PM
To be honest I think that's kind of ignorant (or maybe optimistic) of you. You really believe that people don't have a choice? That if someone is raised wrong that they are going to end up this way and they can't be blamed because it's not their fault they had bad parents (or whatever). It's kind of a cop out. There are people who are raised pretty crappily and turn out to be very good people. Only a very small percentage of the world turns out to be as horrible as someone like Osama Bin Laden. That has to show that it's really just their choice. Sure, if it weren't for their upbringing they wouldn't have had these ideas, but that's not the reason why they became mass murderers. They did that because they made a choice to become that way.
I apologize if I made it seem like he has no choice in this matter. The point I'm trying to convey is that he is completely convinced that he made the right choice. I believe he thinks this way based on his background and culture, or it could be some kind of psychological problem. Who knows, right? What I know for a fact though, is that making judgments on him as being evil is silly, because we don't know the thinking behind his actions.
I know kill all american's for no apparent reason.. that to me is evil. He is a normal person. He decided himself to make the choices he did he didn't have downsyndrome or some disease that made the choice for him he could of easily not of killed any american's if he wanted to.. and Jake im sure he is going to hell he probably isn't christian -_-. and thou shall not kill..
Geeze, why does everything on this forum have to turn into arguments...Can't we all just be happy that justice has finally prevailed and the man behind 9/11 finally got what he deserved?
I was simply just giving my 2 cents -_- not trying to argue isn't that what a forum is for? It's mostly all opinions I think it's nice to see a lot of peoples different views on things and tell them mine.
Quote from: darkflash on May 02, 2011, 06:33:54 PM
I was simply just giving my 2 cents -_- not trying to argue isn't that what a forum is for? It's mostly all opinions I think it's nice to see a lot of peoples different views on things and tell them mine.
I was more talking to the people saying that Osama's death is fake and the others actually arguing over I'm not sure what, not the person who said one thing (you).....At least if you guys are gonna argue, argue about something that makes sense, like whether or not there will be retaliation (or at least an attempt) or such, not whether or not he is actually dead, or if its a plot by Obama....
Quote from: Tidus on May 02, 2011, 06:30:28 PM
Geeze, why does everything on this forum have to turn into arguments...Can't we all just be happy that justice has finally prevailed and the man behind 9/11 finally got what he deserved?
Arguments aren't a bad thing, as long as they are handled properly. To reduce arguments to nothing more then petty attacks and spiteful retorts, those are not needed, but I can say I've actually learned a lot through some of the arguments that have taken place on these forums, and tend to appreciate contributing for the sole purpose of educating myself of other's mindsets, gauging a better well rounded picture.
Quote from: Forum on May 02, 2011, 06:13:18 PM
Expect retaliation..
I think a lot of people are. I just heard on the radio this morning that Los Angeles is tagged for high risk. It's kind of scary, but this kind of thing could happen anywhere at any time.
Quote from: Jake on May 02, 2011, 06:15:32 PM
Quote from: Lingus on May 02, 2011, 05:59:23 PM
To be honest I think that's kind of ignorant (or maybe optimistic) of you. You really believe that people don't have a choice? That if someone is raised wrong that they are going to end up this way and they can't be blamed because it's not their fault they had bad parents (or whatever). It's kind of a cop out. There are people who are raised pretty crappily and turn out to be very good people. Only a very small percentage of the world turns out to be as horrible as someone like Osama Bin Laden. That has to show that it's really just their choice. Sure, if it weren't for their upbringing they wouldn't have had these ideas, but that's not the reason why they became mass murderers. They did that because they made a choice to become that way.
I apologize if I made it seem like he has no choice in this matter. The point I'm trying to convey is that he is completely convinced that he made the right choice. I believe he thinks this way based on his background and culture, or it could be some kind of psychological problem. Who knows, right? What I know for a fact though, is that making judgments on him as being evil is silly, because we don't know the thinking behind his actions.
I guess I just don't understand that mindset. To a certain extent a persons intentions can affect the judgement of their actions... but when it comes to this level of ill will, I can't see any possible thought process that would deem the actions "good" or even "not evil". When you purposely set out to cause as much terror and destruction to a specific group of people without being provoked, it doesn't matter why, you're a bad person.
Jake, I kind of feel like you need to look inside yourself to ask a few questions. Why do you find it necessary to justify someone as horrible as this as not being as bad as everyone makes them out to be? I've personally done enough soul searching to know that no matter what the situation, I would not find myself in the same place as someone like that. Sure, I have some prejudices. Everyone does. But it does not mean I am going to cause harm to those I have prejudices against. In my opinion, everyone is equal and everyone has the same rights, so there's no reason for any of this kind of nonsense to occur in the world. The people who bring this kind of thing about should have consequences.
I know why jake is saying that HES PART OF THE ALKIDA!!!!!!!!! jk lol xD. but ya I cannot see how that couldn't be evil in my opinion. I think we just started a huge war im afraid what the future will bring us. but we as america will never give up and fight back!
EDIT: Was too mean... =(
Quote from: Jmacrules on May 02, 2011, 08:25:33 PM
If I could've killed him, I would've stuck him into a building, filled up a plane with a bunch of captured Arabs, then crashed the plane into the building....see how he feels about it. >:( I'm glad that son of a bitch is dead.
This is the kind of response you want to avoid though - it makes you no better than him, if you wish upon him the tragedies that he befell unto others. No one should ever have to experience that.
I wasn't even going to address that one...
that is true even he doesn't deserve that :I remember HE is the enemy once you do what the enemy does YOU are the enemy
Quote from: darkflash on May 02, 2011, 07:57:47 PM
I know why jake is saying that HES PART OF THE ALKIDA!!!!!!!!! jk lol xD. but ya I cannot see how that couldn't be evil in my opinion. I think we just started a huge war im afraid what the future will bring us. but we as america will never give up and fight back!
Evil is a matter of perspective. Do you consider yourself evil for celebrating the death of another human being? Did we consider ourselves evil for holding people as slaves? Did we consider ourselves evil when we essentially used other countries as a means to fight Russia and Communism during the cold war, and then 'discarded' them when they were no longer of value to us? Bin Laden believed Americans to be evil and the enemy, and believed himself to be right.
I believe the point Jake is trying to make is that he was still a human being. I do not hate the man (hatred is the cause of our troubles in the first place), I merely pity him. I pity the fact that he lived his entire life consumed with hatred, and to the very end, refused a life of peace and happiness.
Quote from: Chaos on May 02, 2011, 09:56:53 PM
I merely pity him. I pity the fact that he lived his entire life consumed with hatred, and to the very end, refused a life of peace and happiness.
Fact.
Quote from: Lingus on May 02, 2011, 07:35:03 PM
I guess I just don't understand that mindset. To a certain extent a persons intentions can affect the judgement of their actions... but when it comes to this level of ill will, I can't see any possible thought process that would deem the actions "good" or even "not evil". When you purposely set out to cause as much terror and destruction to a specific group of people without being provoked, it doesn't matter why, you're a bad person.
It's not about the actions of the person (which I agree are very bad), it's about the mindset of the person making those actions. How can we label someone as evil when they're simply misguided? No matter how devastating the action was, he thought he was right and thought he was fighting evil. To simply state that he is a bad person by looking at actions alone is an extremely shallow judgment of someones character.
QuoteJake, I kind of feel like you need to look inside yourself to ask a few questions. Why do you find it necessary to justify someone as horrible as this as not being as bad as everyone makes them out to be? I've personally done enough soul searching to know that no matter what the situation, I would not find myself in the same place as someone like that. Sure, I have some prejudices. Everyone does. But it does not mean I am going to cause harm to those I have prejudices against. In my opinion, everyone is equal and everyone has the same rights, so there's no reason for any of this kind of nonsense to occur in the world. The people who bring this kind of thing about should have consequences.
I agree that people who cause problems need to be dealt with. I don't think anyone deserves to die, even Hitler or Osama, but taking them out was necessary in order to save lives.
Quote from: darkflash on May 02, 2011, 06:28:09 PM
I know kill all american's for no apparent reason.. that to me is evil. He is a normal person. He decided himself to make the choices he did he didn't have downsyndrome or some disease that made the choice for him he could of easily not of killed any american's if he wanted to.. and Jake im sure he is going to hell he probably isn't christian -_-. and thou shall not kill..
Fortunately, hell doesn't exist. Even if it did, the chances that you somehow won the lottery (aka, picked the right religion) would be quite low.
There are as many definitions of right, wrong, peace, happiness, justices, hatred, love, and hate as people who exists. Entropy happens, we are all different. And that's why the world is the way it is.
Quote from: Jake on May 02, 2011, 10:52:03 PM
Quote from: Lingus on May 02, 2011, 07:35:03 PM
I guess I just don't understand that mindset. To a certain extent a persons intentions can affect the judgement of their actions... but when it comes to this level of ill will, I can't see any possible thought process that would deem the actions "good" or even "not evil". When you purposely set out to cause as much terror and destruction to a specific group of people without being provoked, it doesn't matter why, you're a bad person.
It's not about the actions of the person (which I agree are very bad), it's about the mindset of the person making those actions. How can we label someone as evil when they're simply misguided? No matter how devastating the action was, he thought he was right and thought he was fighting evil. To simply state that he is a bad person by looking at actions alone is an extremely shallow judgment of someones character.
Actions in large part define you as a person. You do what you do because of how you think and feel. In Osama's case, we've seen quotes of him condemning every American and asking that we should be killed. Of course he thought he was right - but we as a society deemed him wrong, and ultimately it is up to ourselves to determine what is "good" and "bad".
You believe he was simply misguided, but that is your perception. How is our perception that he is evil any different than the judgement you are making?
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on May 03, 2011, 12:41:43 AM
Actions in large part define you as a person. You do what you do because of how you think and feel. In Osama's case, we've seen quotes of him condemning every American and asking that we should be killed. Of course he thought he was right - but we as a society deemed him wrong, and ultimately it is up to ourselves to determine what is "good" and "bad".
The action is only half the story. The mindset of the person making the action is absolutely critical if you really want to judge anothers character. Since we very clearly do not know the mindset of Osama Bin laden, to logically judge his character is foolish. You can say he's evil all you want, but whether or not saying that makes any sense at all is a different story. What you've done so far is piece together his negative actions (all of which you've heard from the media) to create what you think is an accurate picture of this guy who you've never talked to, never met, and only heard about negatively from the media since you were a little toddler. I simply ask any reasonable person to judge his actions, not his character, unless you've walked a mile in his shoes and know exactly what he thinks and why.
QuoteYou believe he was simply misguided, but that is your perception. How is our perception that he is evil any different than the judgement you are making?
For the sake of this discussion, lets say it's a universal truth that the actions Osama committed were wrong. Since what he did was wrong, we can gather that somewhere in his thinking he made a mistake. Instead of assuming why he made this mistake (by calling him evil), I took a more reasonable approach and used the word misguided to sum up a broad number of reasons as to why he did what he did. It's a more humble approach, but still subjective in the fact that I'm assuming there's an error in his thinking. Calling him evil is not factually wrong, but it's down right unreasonable because it assumes a great amount about his mindset compared to the term misguided.
Quote from: Jake on May 03, 2011, 02:09:00 AM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on May 03, 2011, 12:41:43 AM
Actions in large part define you as a person. You do what you do because of how you think and feel. In Osama's case, we've seen quotes of him condemning every American and asking that we should be killed. Of course he thought he was right - but we as a society deemed him wrong, and ultimately it is up to ourselves to determine what is "good" and "bad".
The action is only half the story. The mindset of the person making the action is absolutely critical if you really want to judge anothers character. Since we very clearly do not know the mindset of Osama Bin laden, to logically judge his character is foolish. You can say he's evil all you want, but whether or not saying that makes any sense at all is a different story. What you've done so far is piece together his negative actions (all of which you've heard from the media) to create what you think is an accurate picture of this guy who you've never talked to, never met, and only heard about negatively from the media since you were a little toddler. I simply ask any reasonable person to judge his actions, not his character, unless you've walked a mile in his shoes and know exactly what he thinks and why.
QuoteYou believe he was simply misguided, but that is your perception. How is our perception that he is evil any different than the judgement you are making?
For the sake of this discussion, lets say it's a universal truth that the actions Osama committed were wrong. Since what he did was wrong, we can gather that somewhere in his thinking he made a mistake. Instead of assuming why he made this mistake (by calling him evil), I took a more reasonable approach and used the word misguided to sum up a broad number of reasons as to why he did what he did. It's a more humble approach, but still subjective in the fact that I'm assuming there's an error in his thinking. Calling him evil is not factually wrong, but it's down right unreasonable because it assumes a great amount about his mindset compared to the term misguided.
Fair enough. Though, I'm not claiming he is evil based on his own mindset - because yes, I'll never know it. However, his actions (according to me and others) were wrong and counter-productive to what we want. As they say, actions speak louder than words, and even if he believed so strongly that he was right and we were the evil ones, we disagreed and decided he was evil, based on the lives that he has ended. I believe that is reasonable.
I try my best to see things from other sides and not judge according to someone's differing opinion, so I definitely see where you are coming from. That being said, it still is my firm belief that his actions were in the wrong and he was committing them for reasons and thoughts that I disagree with and ultimately hurt everyone as a whole. Yes, my knowledge is only from media and I've never known him in person, but if I wasn't allowed to believe anything I read or heard, I wouldn't be anywhere right now, nor understand history.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on May 03, 2011, 03:04:50 AM
Fair enough. Though, I'm not claiming he is evil based on his own mindset - because yes, I'll never know it. However, his actions (according to me and others) were wrong and counter-productive to what we want. As they say, actions speak louder than words, and even if he believed so strongly that he was right and we were the evil ones, we disagreed and decided he was evil, based on the lives that he has ended. I believe that is reasonable.
I cringe every time somebody uses the word "evil" to express another person. I personally think it should be saved for fictional books, movies, and video games. The human mind is so much more complex than to try and encompass it with a black and white picture of right and wrong.
Quote
I try my best to see things from other sides and not judge according to someone's differing opinion, so I definitely see where you are coming from. That being said, it still is my firm belief that his actions were in the wrong and he was committing them for reasons and thoughts that I disagree with and ultimately hurt everyone as a whole.
This is perfectly fine, and I would agree.
QuoteYes, my knowledge is only from media and I've never known him in person, but if I wasn't allowed to believe anything I read or heard, I wouldn't be anywhere right now, nor understand history.
I'm not saying you should disbelieve everything you hear through the media (although it's important to be weary), but that American TV and radio generally likes to paint a one-sided picture of it's enemies. Characterizing someones entire mindset with a fairytale word based on what you hear through the media is silly.
Quote from: Jake on May 03, 2011, 03:18:20 AM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on May 03, 2011, 03:04:50 AM
Fair enough. Though, I'm not claiming he is evil based on his own mindset - because yes, I'll never know it. However, his actions (according to me and others) were wrong and counter-productive to what we want. As they say, actions speak louder than words, and even if he believed so strongly that he was right and we were the evil ones, we disagreed and decided he was evil, based on the lives that he has ended. I believe that is reasonable.
I cringe every time somebody uses the word "evil" to express another person. I personally think it should be saved for fictional books, movies, and video games. The human mind is so much more complex than to try and encompass it with a black and white picture of right and wrong.
Quote
I try my best to see things from other sides and not judge according to someone's differing opinion, so I definitely see where you are coming from. That being said, it still is my firm belief that his actions were in the wrong and he was committing them for reasons and thoughts that I disagree with and ultimately hurt everyone as a whole.
This is perfectly fine, and I would agree.
QuoteYes, my knowledge is only from media and I've never known him in person, but if I wasn't allowed to believe anything I read or heard, I wouldn't be anywhere right now, nor understand history.
I'm not saying you should disbelieve everything you hear through the media (although it's important to be weary), but that American TV and radio generally likes to paint a one-sided picture of it's enemies. Characterizing someones entire mindset with a fairytale word based on what you hear through the media is silly.
Aye, I definitely have a large bias with what I hear. I've been doing my best lately to hear both sides - I've grown up in a very conservative household in a very liberal state and city. (Of course, those aren't all the sides, just some of the main one that deal with our politics) It's been interesting, and I've been in heavy debate myself over things like this lately.
The entire idea behind what the word means and represents when used is an entirely different can of worms. I can definitely see and even agree with you that it should not be a word to be used lightly. Still, I don't believe the human mind is beyond the ability to be evil. If we can fathom it within fictional settings and stories, I think it is entirely possibly for a person to be genuinely evil - and since we can distinguish genuine evil in a book, we could do the same in life.
Morality may be a very difficult subject with millions of shades of grey, but that shouldn't mean there aren't times when it is black and white. Still though, evil isn't the same to everyone and I probably shouldn't use it to describe him as you suggest. However, I still believe the effects of his actions can be considered evil, in my sense of the word.
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on May 02, 2011, 12:13:53 AM
Chaos found this on 4chan:
"Osama should never have used his real address on PSN"
Made me lol! :D
Osama's last facebook staus: BRB someone at the door.
lmao
Thought I would share these:
(http://img821.imageshack.us/img821/1795/osamastatuses.jpg) (http://img821.imageshack.us/i/osamastatuses.jpg/)
(http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/9392/osamastatus.jpg) (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/339/osamastatus.jpg/)
(http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/6258/funnyfacebookfailsosama.jpg) (http://img810.imageshack.us/i/funnyfacebookfailsosama.jpg/)
(http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/2091/osamastatus1.jpg) (http://img855.imageshack.us/i/osamastatus1.jpg/)
I think these quotes sum up this discussion rather well.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on May 03, 2011, 12:41:43 AMOf course he thought he was right - but we as a society deemed him wrong, and ultimately it is up to ourselves to determine what is "good" and "bad".
Quote from: ARTgames on May 02, 2011, 11:24:44 PM
Entropy happens, we are all different. And that's why the world is the way it is.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on May 03, 2011, 12:41:43 AM
Of course he thought he was right - but we as a society deemed him wrong, and ultimately it is up to ourselves to determine what is "good" and "bad".
Quote from: Jake on May 03, 2011, 02:09:00 AM
For the sake of this discussion, lets say it's a universal truth that the actions Osama committed were wrong. Since what he did was wrong, we can gather that somewhere in his thinking he made a mistake. Instead of assuming why he made this mistake (by calling him evil), I took a more reasonable approach and used the word misguided to sum up a broad number of reasons as to why he did what he did. It's a more humble approach, but still subjective in the fact that I'm assuming there's an error in his thinking. Calling him evil is not factually wrong, but it's down right unreasonable because it assumes a great amount about his mindset compared to the term misguided.
I get what you're saying here Jake. And it makes sense. I'm not one to lightly pass judgement, and I do consider the thought process behind an action to have relevence on how a person should be judged. At this point I kind of feel that you are playing semantics a bit (I still don't think misguided is the right term because it implies that he was not responsible for his actions on some level), but I understand your point of view for the most part and I respect it.
I apologize in advance, this is not meant to be offensive to your country and its people in any way, nor is it meant to offend anyone of any nation, religion, or beliefs. If you fail to notice, this is only my own, personal belief, put a little bluntly. Please consider that fact before replying.
________________________
You're too naive. I find it really odd, how easy it is for your government to make you believe anything they want. Imagine a scenario where your government tells you that afterlife really exists, and how you should all just kill yourself and meet up there - for America! I think most of you would believe it, but for those that don't, a cheaply made video feed of "God talking to Obama" would do the job. I am sure I know much more about this "war" you're having than any of you, and I'm not even American. You really never noticed the possibility of Laden not even existing in the first place? What if he's a work of fiction created by your government, planned to be used for other means? Why did your government find it necessary to even kill Laden if terroristic "attacks" stopped since 2001.? Did any of you notice the recent attention another "terroristic leader" caught by the media? I'm talking about Gaddafi. It's also weird, how much media can control us... Look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Gaddafi_International_Prize_for_Human_Rights), and then remember what you've heard about Gaddafi on your last news report or newspapers. I'm not telling you to not believe your government or the media, all I'm saying is that you should believe yourself, think a bit out of the box, and try to fit every possibility into the current situation. Oh, and use a bit of common sense too.
He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.
________________________
Evil is every deed done that collides with human inner moral code. No matter what - killing is plainly evil. Both your soldiers, your government, the terrorists and their leaders are evil. The goal doesn't exculpate the means.
Quote from: krele on May 03, 2011, 08:00:58 PM
He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.
Pretty sure it is much easier to film a man behind hanged then it is an entire mission in which 40 men came down to invade the house being followed with a fire fight....
Since you gave you're opinion on this, I'll go ahead and give mine on this matter and say I feel that everything you said above this is completely ridiculous. You are apart of the multiple other people who just cannot accept things for what it is, and try to find a scam behind everything. Dumping his body at sea was a very smart tactic, and, to me, the best possible option. If we took his body to America, they would no doubt come attempt to reclaim it. If they left it there or gave it to Iran or something, they would make a shrine for it and continue to praise him....Again to the Sadam Hussein mention...this was a completely different circumstance. #1, we actually tried Hussein and then (#2) we sent him back to Iraq, who were the ones who hanged him and took the videos. Another thing proving that Osama is dead is the Al-Qaeda response to him being dead...I guess we have them behind it too? Maybe they are actually our allies in messing with the American population for kicks?...I doubt it...The SEALs who were there did have cameras in their helmets and did film it, but they only released pictures of the aftermath, not the actual video. They have no want to show the video of the secret mission, and I can see no reason why they should be forced to.
Now their depicting whether or not he used his wife as a shield...ugh
Quote from: Tidus on May 03, 2011, 08:26:33 PM
Quote from: krele on May 03, 2011, 08:00:58 PM
He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.
Pretty sure it is much easier to film a man behind hanged then it is an entire mission in which 40 men came down to invade the house being followed with a fire fight....
Since you gave you're opinion on this, I'll go ahead and give mine on this matter and say I feel that everything you said above this is completely ridiculous. You are apart of the multiple other people who just cannot accept things for what it is, and try to find a scam behind everything. Dumping his body at sea was a very smart tactic, and, to me, the best possible option. If we took his body to America, they would no doubt come attempt to reclaim it. If they left it there or to Iran or something, they would make a shrine for it and continue to praise him....Again to the Sadam Hussein mention...this was a completely different circumstance. #1, we actually tried Hussein and then (#2) we sent him back to Iraq, who were the ones who hanged him and took the videos. Another thing proving that Osama is dead is the Al-Qaeda response to him being dead...I guess we have them behind it too? Maybe they are actually our allies in messing with the American population for kicks?...I doubt it...The SEALs who were there did have camera's in their helmets and did film it, but they only released pictures of the aftermath, not the actual video. They have no want to show the video of the secret mission, and I can see no reason why they should be forced to.
Very well said Tidus.
Krele your blinded by your own ignorance and superstitions so much that you completely evade logic, leading you to believe in your blunt remarks. Your disclaimer about being offensive is irrelevant, because your being completely ridiculous. Your analogy about the American government telling us to kill ourselves and us following suit only further proves your complete ignorance and lack of knowledge about America. Fact of the matter is, we are probably the most free thinking and rebellious people the world has to offer. Why? Because our country founded itself on a series of freedoms and ideas never considered by other nations and we have since then passed more freedoms. Speak for yourself, don't generalize Americans collectively, because quite frankly you have absolutely no basis for your argument other than your own superstition. Don't interpret this as a way of me saying that our government is free of corruption and perfect, that would be the farthest thing from true. We all have our political agreements and disagreements within our own country. But even further than truth than that, would be to declare all Americans hypnotized by it's dishonest government. I am proud to be part of a legacy of free people whom don't have such narrow-minded ideas such as yourself.
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on May 03, 2011, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Tidus on May 03, 2011, 08:26:33 PM
Quote from: krele on May 03, 2011, 08:00:58 PM
He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.
Pretty sure it is much easier to film a man behind hanged then it is an entire mission in which 40 men came down to invade the house being followed with a fire fight....
Since you gave you're opinion on this, I'll go ahead and give mine on this matter and say I feel that everything you said above this is completely ridiculous. You are apart of the multiple other people who just cannot accept things for what it is, and try to find a scam behind everything. Dumping his body at sea was a very smart tactic, and, to me, the best possible option. If we took his body to America, they would no doubt come attempt to reclaim it. If they left it there or to Iran or something, they would make a shrine for it and continue to praise him....Again to the Sadam Hussein mention...this was a completely different circumstance. #1, we actually tried Hussein and then (#2) we sent him back to Iraq, who were the ones who hanged him and took the videos. Another thing proving that Osama is dead is the Al-Qaeda response to him being dead...I guess we have them behind it too? Maybe they are actually our allies in messing with the American population for kicks?...I doubt it...The SEALs who were there did have camera's in their helmets and did film it, but they only released pictures of the aftermath, not the actual video. They have no want to show the video of the secret mission, and I can see no reason why they should be forced to.
Very well said Tidus.
Krele your blinded by your own ignorance and superstitions so much that you completely evade logic, leading you to believe in your blunt remarks. Your disclaimer about being offensive is irrelevant, because your being completely ridiculous. Your analogy about the American government telling us to kill ourselves and us following suit only further proves your complete ignorance and lack of knowledge about America. Fact of the matter is, we are probably the most free thinking and rebellious people the world has to offer. Why? Because our country founded itself on a series of freedoms and ideas never considered by other nations and we have since then passed more freedoms. Speak for yourself, don't generalize Americans collectively, because quite frankly you have absolutely no basis for your argument other than your own superstition. Don't interpret this as a way of me saying that our government is free of corruption and perfect, that would be the farthest thing from true. We all have our political agreements and disagreements within our own country. But even further than truth than that, would be to declare all Americans hypnotized by it's dishonest government. I am proud to be part of a legacy of free people whom don't have such narrow-minded ideas such as yourself.
While I do not agree with krele's standpoint on this matter(the vast majority of it pertaining to his view that Osama bin Laden was part of a government conspiracy, not the overwhelming influence of the media here, I wholeheartedly agree with that), I have to say that paragraph is a load of bollocks, particularly the bolded sections.
This is coming from an American, mind you.
Quote from: Mystery on May 03, 2011, 09:29:06 PM
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on May 03, 2011, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Tidus on May 03, 2011, 08:26:33 PM
Quote from: krele on May 03, 2011, 08:00:58 PM
He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.
Pretty sure it is much easier to film a man behind hanged then it is an entire mission in which 40 men came down to invade the house being followed with a fire fight....
Since you gave you're opinion on this, I'll go ahead and give mine on this matter and say I feel that everything you said above this is completely ridiculous. You are apart of the multiple other people who just cannot accept things for what it is, and try to find a scam behind everything. Dumping his body at sea was a very smart tactic, and, to me, the best possible option. If we took his body to America, they would no doubt come attempt to reclaim it. If they left it there or to Iran or something, they would make a shrine for it and continue to praise him....Again to the Sadam Hussein mention...this was a completely different circumstance. #1, we actually tried Hussein and then (#2) we sent him back to Iraq, who were the ones who hanged him and took the videos. Another thing proving that Osama is dead is the Al-Qaeda response to him being dead...I guess we have them behind it too? Maybe they are actually our allies in messing with the American population for kicks?...I doubt it...The SEALs who were there did have camera's in their helmets and did film it, but they only released pictures of the aftermath, not the actual video. They have no want to show the video of the secret mission, and I can see no reason why they should be forced to.
Very well said Tidus.
Krele your blinded by your own ignorance and superstitions so much that you completely evade logic, leading you to believe in your blunt remarks. Your disclaimer about being offensive is irrelevant, because your being completely ridiculous. Your analogy about the American government telling us to kill ourselves and us following suit only further proves your complete ignorance and lack of knowledge about America. Fact of the matter is, we are probably the most free thinking and rebellious people the world has to offer. Why? Because our country founded itself on a series of freedoms and ideas never considered by other nations and we have since then passed more freedoms. Speak for yourself, don't generalize Americans collectively, because quite frankly you have absolutely no basis for your argument other than your own superstition. Don't interpret this as a way of me saying that our government is free of corruption and perfect, that would be the farthest thing from true. We all have our political agreements and disagreements within our own country. But even further than truth than that, would be to declare all Americans hypnotized by it's dishonest government. I am proud to be part of a legacy of free people whom don't have such narrow-minded ideas such as yourself.
While I do not agree with krele's standpoint on this matter(the vast majority of it pertaining to his view that Osama bin Laden was part of a government conspiracy, not the overwhelming influence of the media here, I wholeheartedly agree with that), I have to say that paragraph is a load of bollocks, particularly the bolded sections.
This is coming from an American, mind you.
Care to elaborate why?
I completely understand if you are thrown off about me positively speaking about our country as if I am oblivious to the fact that there are many uneducated and ignorant people residing in it. I am rather highlighting that the majority of our well-educated Americans (which we do have many) have the ability to see past these sorts of superstitions and evaluate the stories in the media from a rational viewpoint. (Also realize if this is what you were dwelling on, than you have completely missed my point entirely.)
So with that said, where is the basis for the overwhelming amount of "bollocks"?
Quote from: Mystery on May 03, 2011, 09:29:06 PM
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on May 03, 2011, 09:15:04 PM
Quote from: Tidus on May 03, 2011, 08:26:33 PM
Quote from: krele on May 03, 2011, 08:00:58 PM
snip
snip
Very well said Tidus.
Krele your blinded by your own ignorance and superstitions so much that you completely evade logic, leading you to believe in your blunt remarks. Your disclaimer about being offensive is irrelevant, because your being completely ridiculous. Your analogy about the American government telling us to kill ourselves and us following suit only further proves your complete ignorance and lack of knowledge about America. Fact of the matter is, we are probably the most free thinking and rebellious people the world has to offer. Why? Because our country founded itself on a series of freedoms and ideas never considered by other nations and we have since then passed more freedoms. Speak for yourself, don't generalize Americans collectively, because quite frankly you have absolutely no basis for your argument other than your own superstition. Don't interpret this as a way of me saying that our government is free of corruption and perfect, that would be the farthest thing from true. We all have our political agreements and disagreements within our own country. But even further than truth than that, would be to declare all Americans hypnotized by it's dishonest government. I am proud to be part of a legacy of free people whom don't have such narrow-minded ideas such as yourself.
While I do not agree with krele's standpoint on this matter(the vast majority of it pertaining to his view that Osama bin Laden was part of a government conspiracy, not the overwhelming influence of the media here, I wholeheartedly agree with that), I have to say that paragraph is a load of bollocks, particularly the bolded sections.
This is coming from an American, mind you.
Can you please give some information to back this up, because I don't fully understand what you mean.
Americans are definitely the most free thinking and rebellious people in the world. There are not many places in the world where you can believe what ever the hell you want and be whatever type of person you want to be. Are there assholes in America who try to put people down for certain beliefs, of course!, but as a whole, we normally look down upon such citizens, and have such things as hate crimes, which many places do not have. Just as an example, lets look at the idiot who felt it was a good idea to burn the Quran. The general population of the US thought of him as a complete, prejudiced idiot, except for his few followers. It's also completely crazy to say that Americans are not rebellious, as we are more then likely too rebellious for our own good. For the government, is there a whole lot of shit we do not/never will know about, of course, impossible to find a government that doesn't hide shit from its citizens. However, a majority of this stuff is held from out knowledge for our own good. There are some things the general population simply doesn't need to know, and will live better, happier lives not knowing.
Anyway, my two cents on the matter, I wrote all this while Pwnage wrote his (which seemed to condense everything I said), but I don't want to not post it, since I took the time to write it haha
Quote from: Tidus on May 03, 2011, 09:53:54 PM
Americans are definitely the most free thinking and rebellious people in the world.
No, we're not. That title belongs to Western Europe.
Quote from: krele on May 03, 2011, 08:00:58 PM
You're too naive. I find it really odd, how easy it is for your government to make you believe anything they want. Imagine a scenario where your government tells you that afterlife really exists, and how you should all just kill yourself and meet up there - for America! I think most of you would believe it, but for those that don't, a cheaply made video feed of "God talking to Obama" would do the job. I am sure I know much more about this "war" you're having than any of you, and I'm not even American. You really never noticed the possibility of Laden not even existing in the first place? What if he's a work of fiction created by your government, planned to be used for other means? Why did your government find it necessary to even kill Laden if terroristic "attacks" stopped since 2001.? Did any of you notice the recent attention another "terroristic leader" caught by the media? I'm talking about Gaddafi. It's also weird, how much media can control us... Look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Gaddafi_International_Prize_for_Human_Rights), and then remember what you've heard about Gaddafi on your last news report or newspapers. I'm not telling you to not believe your government or the media, all I'm saying is that you should believe yourself, think a bit out of the box, and try to fit every possibility into the current situation. Oh, and use a bit of common sense too.
He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.
Tidus covered a lot of what I was thinking.
Also, you act like all Americans follow the government blindly and happily. If that's your view, your shit is skewed son. Most people I know hate the American government, I know plenty who'd rather live in Canada.
Secondly, Saddam Hussein was CAPTURED, and then it was decided that he be hanged for his actions. And it's not like that video of his death was some government recorded thing. Someone snuck a camera phone in and it was eventually seen by pretty much everyone, it was not played "live". Bin Laden on the other hand, was killed IN action, his face apparently mutilated beyond recognition. Hence the DNA test. What good would it be for any of us to see a picture of him after he was filled full of holes? Jack squat.
There are COUNTLESS conspiracies that America was behind the whole 9/11 thing and that Bin Laden just happened to take credit for it out of his sheer hate for America.(Boy, wouldn't he look silly if the "real" people responsible came forward) I find it ridiculous honestly. How do you look at the tapes Bin Laden made after the fact and say he's never had anything to do with this all along?
No, the media and government are not always 100% trustworthy, but no government ever is. People are going to be biased no matter what you do, so the best thing is to not get your news from one single source, but rather multiple different ones. While I agree thinking outside the box is a great skill to have, you're stretching. You just sound like every other conspiracy theorist out there in the world.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42873423/ns/world_news-death_of_bin_laden/?GT1=43001
"The White House had earlier expressed concerns about making any death images of bin Laden public, considering the nature of his fatal wounds. U.S. officials say the still-secret photographic evidence shows a precision kill shot above his left eye, which blew away part of his skull. He was also shot in the chest, they said.
The White House said the photograph of a dead Osama bin Laden is "gruesome" and that "it could be inflammatory" if released. "
Quote from: krele on May 03, 2011, 08:00:58 PM
I apologize in advance, this is not meant to be offensive to your country and its people in any way, nor is it meant to offend anyone of any nation, religion, or beliefs. If you fail to notice, this is only my own, personal belief, put a little bluntly. Please consider that fact before replying.
________________________
You're too naive. I find it really odd, how easy it is for your government to make you believe anything they want. Imagine a scenario where your government tells you that afterlife really exists, and how you should all just kill yourself and meet up there - for America! I think most of you would believe it, but for those that don't, a cheaply made video feed of "God talking to Obama" would do the job. I am sure I know much more about this "war" you're having than any of you, and I'm not even American. You really never noticed the possibility of Laden not even existing in the first place? What if he's a work of fiction created by your government, planned to be used for other means? Why did your government find it necessary to even kill Laden if terroristic "attacks" stopped since 2001.? Did any of you notice the recent attention another "terroristic leader" caught by the media? I'm talking about Gaddafi. It's also weird, how much media can control us... Look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Gaddafi_International_Prize_for_Human_Rights), and then remember what you've heard about Gaddafi on your last news report or newspapers. I'm not telling you to not believe your government or the media, all I'm saying is that you should believe yourself, think a bit out of the box, and try to fit every possibility into the current situation. Oh, and use a bit of common sense too.
He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.
________________________
Evil is every deed done that collides with human inner moral code. No matter what - killing is plainly evil. Both your soldiers, your government, the terrorists and their leaders are evil. The goal doesn't exculpate the means.
Krele, I've come to respect you a lot as of the last year, more so than I would originally have ever admitted. You know this as we've discussed it in private, and with that being said, I think there are a lot of mis-guided opinions you are sharing. I'll merely share mine with you for your consumption, only I'll leave out the profanities or selective verbage that would allude to anyone being ignorant.
When Hussein was videotaped, that was under no means sanctioned by anyone. If it was witnessed and not stopped, they were all wrong. There was no reason for that to be video taped, and it definitely wasn't intended, you can determine that based off the crappy lighting they had in the room. The reasons we aren't showing anything with regards to Osama's death is because it doesn't benefit us at all, plus we are a country that has learned from our mistakes in the past. Look at Abu-Ghraib or any of the other times we've shown our ass because we wanted "war trophies". We've had our pee-pee's smacked in the past, and the SEAL team that was responsible are no dumb bunch like the bored folks who thought it humorous to get photo evidence of their idiocy. Hell, there's a reason they prefer to remain anonymous, videotaping this kind of stuff is going to be nothing but counter-productive. They are a smart bunch, and the most professional in their field.
We will have conspirators no matter what. Provide a photo, we'll call it doctored, give us a video, and we'll say Hollywood was behind it. Best part is, that's all irrelevant when considering the retaliation it would bring. Seriously, the SEALs could have taken a piss on his body, and we'll never know. Best part is, that doesn't matter, because our government did the right thing and speak the facts regarding the situation. Of course the President wouldn't get up on his podium and say "Today, we've assassinated America's greatest threat, Jimmy, roll the footage of the SEALs pissing on him, subsequently incriminating the entire United States and invoking imminent retaliation beyond imagination."
If you really honestly believed we are suckling the tit of the deceiving American government. I challenge you, watch Al-Jazeera a month from his murder. If he's alive, he will let us know. Being former signals intelligence in the Marine Corps, I can vouch for the fact that he is a humble, well spoken, if not a bit big-headed individual, and he wouldn't be nearly as charismatic if his followers believed him dead. If Al-Jazeera doesn't get their hands on a video from him in one month's, if not one week's time, I
guarantee he is dead.
Trillions of dollars in costs, countless lives lost, and terrorism is still just as large as it always has been. And yet people are still standing outside the white house chanting "USA". Goddamn the news pisses me off.
Quote from: Mr PwnageCare to elaborate why?
I completely understand if you are thrown off about me positively speaking about our country as if I am oblivious to the fact that there are many uneducated and ignorant people residing in it. I am rather highlighting that the majority of our well-educated Americans (which we do have many) have the ability to see past these sorts of superstitions and evaluate the stories in the media from a rational viewpoint. (Also realize if this is what you were dwelling on, than you have completely missed my point entirely.)
So with that said, where is the basis for the overwhelming amount of "bollocks"?
Gladly.
Our country was not founded with equal rights for all people, it had an incredible favorable bias towards white Christian males. Other different groups(not necessarily ethnic) were segregated and discriminated against(and to a considerably lesser degree, still are) to an outrageous extent, namely Native Americans and Africans. Women had no presidential suffrage until 1920(and even then, they didn't vote until 3 years later). The Jim Crow laws exacted less than a century ago in this country essentially made African-Americans second-class citizens and could be considered a heavily-water down compromise to slavery.
To this day, numerous biases and obstructions to rights still exist. Homosexual people do not have the ability to marry another homosexual, due to the bloody DEFINITION of marriage being mangled to serve the purposes of fundamentalist politicians. The wealth distribution in our country is extraordinarily unbalanced(nearly half of the monetary influence controlled by 1% of the population), and compared to many other countries, is incredibly absurd. Atheists as a group overall are ridiculed often(and no, it's not JUST my personal experience).
Many, MANY ordinary people today favorably bias many groups and act illogically and hatefully, well-educated Americans included. I do not disagree that we have several intelligent people here(and some who are unbiased), but that doesn't detract from my point. Those uneducated and ignorant people are still Americans, and depending on how you define that, those people can make up a LOT of our country. Tons of them have INCREDIBLY narrow minds and narrow-minded ideas. And are you seriously trying to suggest we do not favor the American government and act biased and illogically in certain ways towards it, that we don't abhor certain other forms of government without knowing next to anything about them, and that our own government cannot become incredibly skewed(and depending on how you define 'skewed', it can easily be right now)?
Yes, compared to some other countries, we do enjoy more freedoms. Compared to ALL countries? Hell no. Western Europe takes the gold medal for that.
If you'd like me to clarify or talk about something in greater detail, let me know, because this post sems rather small to me now that I've looked over it.
Quote from: Mystery on May 04, 2011, 05:18:05 PM
Quote from: Mr PwnageCare to elaborate why?
I completely understand if you are thrown off about me positively speaking about our country as if I am oblivious to the fact that there are many uneducated and ignorant people residing in it. I am rather highlighting that the majority of our well-educated Americans (which we do have many) have the ability to see past these sorts of superstitions and evaluate the stories in the media from a rational viewpoint. (Also realize if this is what you were dwelling on, than you have completely missed my point entirely.)
So with that said, where is the basis for the overwhelming amount of "bollocks"?
Gladly.
Our country was not founded with equal rights for all people, it had an incredible favorable bias towards white Christian males. Other different groups(not necessarily ethnic) were segregated and discriminated against(and to a considerably lesser degree, still are) to an outrageous extent, namely Native Americans and Africans. Women had no presidential suffrage until 1920(and even then, they didn't vote until 3 years later). The Jim Crow laws exacted less than a century ago in this country essentially made African-Americans second-class citizens and could be considered a heavily-water down compromise to slavery.
To this day, numerous biases and obstructions to rights still exist. Homosexual people do not have the ability to marry another homosexual, due to the bloody DEFINITION of marriage being mangled to serve the purposes of fundamentalist politicians. The wealth distribution in our country is extraordinarily unbalanced(nearly half of the monetary influence controlled by 1% of the population), and compared to many other countries, is incredibly absurd. Atheists as a group overall are ridiculed often(and no, it's not JUST my personal experience).
Many, MANY ordinary people today favorably bias many groups and act illogically and hatefully, well-educated Americans included. I do not disagree that we have several intelligent people here(and some who are unbiased), but that doesn't detract from my point. Those uneducated and ignorant people are still Americans, and depending on how you define that, those people can make up a LOT of our country. Tons of them have INCREDIBLY narrow minds and narrow-minded ideas. And are you seriously trying to suggest we do not favor the American government and act biased and illogically in certain ways towards it, that we don't abhor certain other forms of government without knowing next to anything about them, and that our own government cannot become incredibly skewed(and depending on how you define 'skewed', it can easily be right now)?
Yes, compared to some other countries, we do enjoy more freedoms. Compared to ALL countries? Hell no. Western Europe takes the gold medal for that.
If you'd like me to clarify or talk about something in greater detail, let me know, because this post sems rather small to me now that I've looked over it.
Now, I don't want to get into a heated debate, because I don't presume to know what even half of the people of the USA think or feel, but I'll just speak from my observations on what I've seen from various media and from my own city.
First of all, when we were founded, yes it favored white Christian males heavily. It promoted slavery and racism. However, it set forth new ideals with its placement of a democracy that had representation of the people - one that wasn't ruled by a monarchy. Our own constitution talked about every man being equal - and while not true at the time, look how far forward we have moved since then. Does that not count for anything?
To your second point, I won't disagree. There are many problems facing the people of Americans, whether they be in a minority or a majority. Though, I'd like to point out that it is not just atheists who are ridiculed - any form of religious group is not without its haters.
To your third point, I'm not so sure it is the vast majority. I would not clump together all people who are uneducated as ignorant as well. The lack of education could be very well why they have the mindset they do, and that may be no fault of their own. As you said yourself, people define those terms very differently, so I'm not sure you can easily consider that most Americans are "uneducated and ignorant" without some common ground on what that is and something to back up the majority of Americans fall within those terms. Additionally (and I'm not saying you said this), but never forget a person has every right to disagree with homosexuality/atheism/whatever. While you may consider them wrong through subjective means, I don't think it is fair to approach these people as if they are inherently bad/ignorant. Everyone has their own definitions, and not every person who believes these things are "uneducated/ignorant/narrow-minded". I suppose you can consider them as such based on their views, but I don't think it is very fair. I figure if you want to talk about open-mindedness and promoting other people to do the same, then it is best to avoid grouping and labeling people or assuming the worst of others.
Also, to your point about being skewed toward our government, I'll admit most people have a bias. Who doesn't want to believe the government they live under has at least some good values? None the less though, not everyone feels that way, and you say that as if we are the only country to be so ignorant. I've spoken to a many of foreigners, who seem just as unknowing of how our government works as well. I'm pretty positive we aren't the only country who thinks highly of themselves and looks down on the institutions of the others.
I think the main thing we are talking about now is in relation to Krele's comments about the people here who believe that Osama Bin Laden has been killed (or even existed in the first place) are potentially being brainwashed by the American Government. Now, I don't disagree that a vast majority of people (all people, not just Americans) are brainwashed by media (and therefore anything that might come from the government through the media, which is how everyone gets their news). But, and I can only speak for myself, I don't agree that because someone happens to believe something like Bin Laden being killed (or having existed) it means they are brainwashed. I certainly am not. I absolutely hate popular media and all that it comes with. I almost completely ignore the "news" that comes out of our television and radio. I am extremely selective about where I get my news, and what I even choose to listen to.
For one thing, why would it even matter to the average person if Bin Laden were killed or not? As far as I am concerned some event took place that relates to the ongoing war. It involves me in as much as there might potentially be an increased of a terrorist attack in my area. And even then I am not taking any additional precautions than I would have otherwise. What could the government have gained out of this other than bringing down one of the biggest figure heads in the current war? As other people have mentioned, if they are lying about this, it will be brought to light, and they will be in a worse place than if they had done nothing. So it makes no sense.
I think everyone is going off on a tangent here. The discussion was not, is America brainwashed? (the answer to that is, mostly yes.) The discussion was more that people who don't think Bin Laden was a conspiracy are brainwashed. And to me it just makes me think Krele is scizophrenic...
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on May 04, 2011, 05:57:06 PM
Now, I don't want to get into a heated debate, because I don't presume to know what even half of the people of the USA think or feel, but I'll just speak from my observations on what I've seen from various media and from my own city.
Nor would I, overheated debates don't get anyone anywhere. I'm interested to see others' viewpoints on this matter.
First of all, when we were founded, yes it favored white Christian males heavily. It promoted slavery and racism. However, it set forth new ideals with its placement of a democracy that had representation of the people - one that wasn't ruled by a monarchy. Our own constitution talked about every man being equal - and while not true at the time, look how far forward we have moved since then. Does that not count for anything?
It does indeed. However, a problem I have with that is that it would have been INCREDIBLY easy to avoid these detriments to progress, and even though I am aware of the hindsight bias, there are just so many screw-ups and attempts to preserve the inherently flawed status quo back then.
To your second point, I won't disagree. There are many problems facing the people of Americans, whether they be in a minority or a majority. Though, I'd like to point out that it is not just atheists who are ridiculed - any form of religious group is not without its haters.
I agree completely. Atheists were just a throwaway example.
To your third point, I'm not so sure it is the vast majority. I would not clump together all people who are uneducated as ignorant as well. The lack of education could be very well why they have the mindset they do, and that may be no fault of their own. As you said yourself, people define those terms very differently, so I'm not sure you can easily consider that most Americans are "uneducated and ignorant" without some common ground on what that is and something to back up the majority of Americans fall within those terms. Additionally (and I'm not saying you said this), but never forget a person has every right to disagree with homosexuality/atheism/whatever. While you may consider them wrong through subjective means, I don't think it is fair to approach these people as if they are inherently bad/ignorant. Everyone has their own definitions, and not every person who believes these things are "uneducated/ignorant/narrow-minded". I suppose you can consider them as such based on their views, but I don't think it is very fair. I figure if you want to talk about open-mindedness and promoting other people to do the same, then it is best to avoid grouping and labeling people or assuming the worst of others.
I was not trying to say that disagreeing with someone over homosexuality/atheism/whatever was bad. There is a difference between disagreeing with something and unjust discrimination. I was partially referring to the imposing of devices that would hinder one of those groups and not benefit anyone, being done solely for the purpose of not letting people do something they should have every right to do(e.g., ban on same-sex marriage).
Also, to your point about being skewed toward our government, I'll admit most people have a bias. Who doesn't want to believe the government they live under has at least some good values? None the less though, not everyone feels that way, and you say that as if we are the only country to be so ignorant. I've spoken to a many of foreigners, who seem just as unknowing of how our government works as well. I'm pretty positive we aren't the only country who thinks highly of themselves and looks down on the institutions of the others.
I agree wholeheartedly.
Quote from: Scotty on May 04, 2011, 12:49:44 AM
Quote from: krele on May 03, 2011, 08:00:58 PM
I apologize in advance, this is not meant to be offensive to your country and its people in any way, nor is it meant to offend anyone of any nation, religion, or beliefs. If you fail to notice, this is only my own, personal belief, put a little bluntly. Please consider that fact before replying.
________________________
You're too naive. I find it really odd, how easy it is for your government to make you believe anything they want. Imagine a scenario where your government tells you that afterlife really exists, and how you should all just kill yourself and meet up there - for America! I think most of you would believe it, but for those that don't, a cheaply made video feed of "God talking to Obama" would do the job. I am sure I know much more about this "war" you're having than any of you, and I'm not even American. You really never noticed the possibility of Laden not even existing in the first place? What if he's a work of fiction created by your government, planned to be used for other means? Why did your government find it necessary to even kill Laden if terroristic "attacks" stopped since 2001.? Did any of you notice the recent attention another "terroristic leader" caught by the media? I'm talking about Gaddafi. It's also weird, how much media can control us... Look at this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Gaddafi_International_Prize_for_Human_Rights), and then remember what you've heard about Gaddafi on your last news report or newspapers. I'm not telling you to not believe your government or the media, all I'm saying is that you should believe yourself, think a bit out of the box, and try to fit every possibility into the current situation. Oh, and use a bit of common sense too.
He was thrown into the water, what a nice story it is! No pictures, no video feed, no tapes, nothing. Only a word from few of your politicians, president, and media, and you're all set for adventuring into the illusions your OWNERS cleverly cast upon you. Do you really think America cares enough to "give him a slice of peace and fairness"? Go slap yourself, this is clearly the stupidest claim they ever made. They fu?king recorded and played Sadam Hussein's execution LIVE, but taking a single video recording or photograph of Laden was a burden? That's bullsh!t, something's just wrong, really fu?king wrong here. They knew you would all be interested in seeing some proof with your own eyes, well, why didn't they offer anything as they did with Hussein. The matching DNA test is there just to trick you into thinking it proves something. I don't buy it.
________________________
Evil is every deed done that collides with human inner moral code. No matter what - killing is plainly evil. Both your soldiers, your government, the terrorists and their leaders are evil. The goal doesn't exculpate the means.
Krele, I've come to respect you a lot as of the last year, more so than I would originally have ever admitted. You know this as we've discussed it in private, and with that being said, I think there are a lot of mis-guided opinions you are sharing. I'll merely share mine with you for your consumption, only I'll leave out the profanities or selective verbage that would allude to anyone being ignorant.
When Hussein was videotaped, that was under no means sanctioned by anyone. If it was witnessed and not stopped, they were all wrong. There was no reason for that to be video taped, and it definitely wasn't intended, you can determine that based off the crappy lighting they had in the room. The reasons we aren't showing anything with regards to Osama's death is because it doesn't benefit us at all, plus we are a country that has learned from our mistakes in the past. Look at Abu-Ghraib or any of the other times we've shown our ass because we wanted "war trophies". We've had our pee-pee's smacked in the past, and the SEAL team that was responsible are no dumb bunch like the bored folks who thought it humorous to get photo evidence of their idiocy. Hell, there's a reason they prefer to remain anonymous, videotaping this kind of stuff is going to be nothing but counter-productive. They are a smart bunch, and the most professional in their field.
We will have conspirators no matter what. Provide a photo, we'll call it doctored, give us a video, and we'll say Hollywood was behind it. Best part is, that's all irrelevant when considering the retaliation it would bring. Seriously, the SEALs could have taken a piss on his body, and we'll never know. Best part is, that doesn't matter, because our government did the right thing and speak the facts regarding the situation. Of course the President wouldn't get up on his podium and say "Today, we've assassinated America's greatest threat, Jimmy, roll the footage of the SEALs pissing on him, subsequently incriminating the entire United States and invoking imminent retaliation beyond imagination."
If you really honestly believed we are suckling the tit of the deceiving American government. I challenge you, watch Al-Jazeera a month from his murder. If he's alive, he will let us know. Being former signals intelligence in the Marine Corps, I can vouch for the fact that he is a humble, well spoken, if not a bit big-headed individual, and he wouldn't be nearly as charismatic if his followers believed him dead. If Al-Jazeera doesn't get their hands on a video from him in one month's, if not one week's time, I guarantee he is dead.
Good, a useful, well thought-out post, unlike any other here. You seem to be the only one that understands the intro of my post, that's why I'm replying only to you.
I'm not ignorant, nor am I blinded by my own beliefs. I'm merely sharing my point of view, and I'm in no way excluding every other possibility. I'm not pinpointing conspiracy to everything, I just see it as a possibility. It was odd to me that nobody made a post saying how it's another possibility. I expected biased opinion, and damn well I got it.
It wouldn't be taped if it wasn't meant to be taped. I remember America never thought twice about releasing all the pictures when Saddam was captured, even before he was hanged. How do you explain this, except for the fact that Osama was killed, not captured. The SEALs you're talking about are as professional as those that captured Saddam, yet they took photos, video records, etc.
Good point, if Osama really existed and is dead then there's nothing beneficial in recording any footage of him being dead, except for pleasing the whole nation. But I can't help but think something is very wrong about them throwing him in the water. Why would they care? They could've just took some samples of his DNA, and disposed off his body elsewhere. The body was thrown into the sea (or river, cba to recheck). This eliminates any chances of anyone ever finding Osama's body, and this is the strongest argument that made them choose to dispose his body in such manner. But come to think of it, what do they gain with this? Seriously, why wouldn't they leave the body where they killed him? Would save themselves some time. Also yes, I agree, it's best to remain anonymous in this kind of operation, but taking a photo doesn't really announce the photographer's name and face, right? All of the military men behind the capture of Saddam appeared and talked about it on some show before, and their families are still safe years later.
I agree, even if the pictures exist, I'd say they're shopped. Video feed? Sfx. But even then, it would convince me much more than story of Osama becoming fish food. The fact they took no kind of evidence is what makes the story seem suspicious. Sure, I see the problem with the immorality in showing a dead human being on any kind of media, but don't forget we've seen so much gruesome shit on the media, but yet we can't handle seeing the horror of your biggest foe's dead corpse? Not buying it. I still don't see the real point in killing Osama. Sure, your people hate him, but his attacks stopped in 2001. He really wasn't the world's most powerful terrorist anymore. Most hated yes, but he was basically already dying and had little to no impact on the world.
In the end, Osama could've been dead few years ago, when rumors about his death started to spread. Maybe it's just Obama wanting to get re-elected?
Quote from: Mystery on May 04, 2011, 08:12:57 PM
-snipp-
Very much so, then! I had a feeling I was maybe coming off as passive-aggressive, but I'm glad you didn't read it that way.
"
I was not trying to say that disagreeing with someone over homosexuality/atheism/whatever was bad. There is a difference between disagreeing with something and unjust discrimination. I was partially referring to the imposing of devices that would hinder one of those groups and not benefit anyone, being done solely for the purpose of not letting people do something they should have every right to do(e.g., ban on same-sex marriage)."
100% on the mark.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on May 04, 2011, 08:59:33 PM
Quote from: Mystery on May 04, 2011, 08:12:57 PM
-snipp-
Very much so, then! I had a feeling I was maybe coming off as passive-aggressive, but I'm glad you didn't read it that way.
Haha, when I re-read my first post on this topic after posting it, I felt the exact same way. :P