So, I have an interesting theoretical thought experiment that I was reminded of by the Piracy topic. I figured I'd get people's minds jogging with it. Maybe you'll even learn something.
Suppose that the technology to copy matter, much the same way that we copy data, was discovered.
What do you think companies would do?
Would you do it?
If so, would you feel bad about doing it?
And so it begins...
I would fall into the category of 'If everyone else is doing; why shouldn't I?'. If companies are doing it, I'd think it would be fine for normal people to partake in small quantities of the usage.. Although it would probably ruin the world. I don't think the world can function without an economy or stable set of actual limitations. Perhaps it would be covered up and not distributed? Regardless, I would think the world would end with people trying to clone themselves and have mutations and such..
I need some things clarified.
Can you copy living beings?
Is this technology widespread & easily acquirable? (I.E. Computers & Pirating)
Is there any costs involved, or limitations to what you can copy? (I.E. Size)
It's hard for me to put this into perspective without some kind of rules in place, otherwise I'm stuck imagining filling every square inch of the world with kittens and large breasted women.
Quote from: Lucifer on October 31, 2011, 01:14:58 AM
I need some things clarified.
Can you copy living beings?
Is this technology widespread & easily acquirable?
Is there any costs involved, or in other words, possible limitations?
You can copy their body, but the new body wouldn't necessarily be alive. Go with whatever hypothetical situation you want.
Do you think it would be? Consider that the machine or whatever itself would be matter, and could thus be copied.
For the sake of the discussion, no, it works just like copying data. It copies an item down to the atom and duplicates it flawlessly. (In reality, since matter can not be destroyed or created from nothing, only converted, it would probably work by converting matter (air particles) or whatever into the duplicated item.)
And ill assume it would be easy to do and any one can do it at any time as may times as they want. If so I guess material matter would not matter to us anymore since we could have anything anytime anywhere. Maybe just how much space we could have would be the worry but there's alot of it out there so maybe not. There would be no worry for food, place to live, just having 1 earth, defense since you can have any weapon you want. Plus if I can doop myself if i die. I would guess that most of the traditional reasons why we die or get happy/unhappy with each other will be lesser of a problem. But there would still be some normal problems still. But other than that there wouldn't be a need for "stealing" really.
I feel like most people get there kicks out of challenges and things they cant have so maybe intellectual field will be the place people look to. Trying to find out new things we can make most likely. So alot of physics/art/anything we think and makeup.
In other words I guess it would be kinda like cheating on survival mode on minecraft if you could take less of "its a game" aspect out of it. You could have what ever you wanted and you could still die, but you could make more of your self etc.
If such was the case, I'd say a large number of our current problems would be solved - and no one, no company, and no government is going to stop a social revolution that revolves around those machines.
In terms of how I would feel - I would not feel bad about it, and I would use the machines myself. I don't believe companies and governments would stop it, and even if they tried, I'm sure there would be one hell of a fight before the vast majority let some higher up individuals regulate a miracle machine.
Haha! I'm pleasantly surprised at how quickly you guys caught on to that! A lot of people get hung up on the fact that you're 'depriving people of earning money off their product' and completely miss the reason they are making money in the first place.
But interestingly, I've seen people shifting this from a matter of economy to a matter of ultimate utopia vs. utter chaos. Lucifer expressed concern that people could infinitely duplicate weapons and bombs, while my mindset has largely been about the problems it would solve, such as hunger and theft and allowing people to focus on improvement, learning, and fulfilling their interests. Interesting! What do you think? Would good or evil ultimately win?
Incidentally, keep in mind that it duplicates things exactly as they are, so a duplicated body would not be any younger or healthier (or even necessarily alive). Would allow us to duplicate new body parts, making transplants for organs much easier, though!
This is the solution to world hunger, and also the end of the world. Infinite food, Infinite healthy organs, infinite nuclear bombs, infinite war, Infinite Death.
This invention would be the end of the world.
See, at this point, the question boils down to whether the person believes humanity is inherently good or evil.
Honestly, I believe people are inherently good, and just want to live. If it weren't for circumstances, would people still commit evil acts? Would one still pick up a gun if given a gameboy? Would one still steal if they had all the food they needed? Would a person who has anything they'd ever need to survive choose to spend their life making others miserable? Do these people commit evil because of their situation, or because they are evil?
Me, I choose to believe they commit evil because they believe they have to, or because of issues when they were raised, not because they want to.
Yeah Chaos, but it takes one idiot person, one person that has been so deprived for long. To start a world war.
Quote from: Chaos on October 31, 2011, 04:10:40 AM
See, at this point, the question boils down to whether the person believes humanity is inherently good or evil.
Honestly, I believe people are inherently good, and just want to live. If it weren't for circumstances, would people still commit evil acts? Would one still pick up a gun if given a gameboy? Would one still steal if they had all the food they needed? Would a person who has anything they'd ever need to survive choose to spend their life making others miserable? Do these people commit evil because of their situation, or because they are evil?
Me, I choose to believe they commit evil because they believe they have to, or because of issues when they were raised, not because they want to.
Hard to say since good and evil are such relative terms depending on the viewer so it would depend on the individual. But do generally have somethings we think that are good or evil but some of that changes over time and if we had something this big I think it would change many things we think of as good and evil. I would say in the end people are people and will do all the above mainly because when you give them a choice like that in the virtual world they seem to do all of the above.
Under my own judgment of the meaning of those words probably pretty much in the middle maybe leaning to the good side.
I think the world's good points and problems would be the same, just multiplied by a lot. Because the good people would use it for good, the bad would use it for bad. So, I'm thinking it would be like it is now, just both ends of the spectrum would be greatly exaggerated.
(recreating money, cars, products people don't really need but want. Inflation, but I guess who needs money when you can duplicate things.... I think the world would just fill up with junk and crush us all in due time. That would be the apocalypse I'd see. lol)
I'd duplicate about 500 jagillion copies of Christina Hendricks (http://unrealitymag.com/index.php/2010/03/09/the-15-best-pictures-of-christina-hendricks/) and never leave the house. Get on it Chaos!
Quote from: Scotty on October 31, 2011, 12:35:17 PM
I'd duplicate about 500 jagillion copies of Christina Hendricks (http://unrealitymag.com/index.php/2010/03/09/the-15-best-pictures-of-christina-hendricks/) and never leave the house. Get on it Chaos!
Necrophilia?
I'd just copy a bunch of hot women and have a harem. Maybe pimp them out too? I mean profit is profit.
As for the good or evil debate, I think that society would err on the side of Good. Most murders, wars and so on are untimately fought over some resource, wealth or item. If you could theoretically always have everything you need, most of the reasons for murder are gone. Countries have no real reason to go to war. People have no reason to mug one another and so on. The only people who would still kill are those malicious enough to kill simply because they enjoy killing, and I would imagine those people are far and few between.
What I think is interesting is that this may not be too far from reality. They currently have 3D printers that "print" an object in 3 dimensions out of various different substances. You can, right now, print out somewhat complex machines. Further down the road, this might allow someone to print out small to medium sized electronic devices.
The interesting thing comes in when you realize that people will no longer be purchasing products, but purchasing the schematics for those products and "printing" the product in their own home. So if you look at it that way, pirating will actually provide people with physical items. This changes the whole thing about copying an item off a shelf and stealing it from a hypothetical debate, to a real debate (sorry if I'm jumping back to the other thread here).
Relating that back to this topic, if we had a hypothetical machine that can copy objects (rather than requiring schematics) now you could get into a debate about whether it is acceptable (moraly or otherwise) to copy someone else's objects without their permission. Or, even copying an object without the permission of the original maker of the object (if the object is man-made).
Certainly, there would immediately be laws put in place prohibiting copying someone else's body without their permission. People with desirable bodies, or body parts, would probably become rich selling the rights to copy their body and/or body parts.
With copyright laws the way they are now, it would be illegal to copy an object made by someone without their expressed written permission. It's also interesting to think about what industries this would hit. Physical stores where you walk in to buy objects would eventually no longer exist.
Sex toy companies would be furious...just and get one model and...the possibilities would be endless!
On a more series note, this kind of invention would ruin the need for society as we know it. Money is a material item. There would be no way to have common currency because this effectively makes all forms of matter pretty much devoid of value. It would probably lead to utter chaos and the death of the human race. So on the philosophical side of your question, hell yeah I would partake in it!
Quote from: Lingus on October 31, 2011, 06:33:12 PM
What I think is interesting is that this may not be too far from reality. They currently have 3D printers that "print" an object in 3 dimensions out of various different substances. You can, right now, print out somewhat complex machines. Further down the road, this might allow someone to print out small to medium sized electronic devices.
The interesting thing comes in when you realize that people will no longer be purchasing products, but purchasing the schematics for those products and "printing" the product in their own home. So if you look at it that way, pirating will actually provide people with physical items. This changes the whole thing about copying an item off a shelf and stealing it from a hypothetical debate, to a real debate (sorry if I'm jumping back to the other thread here).
Relating that back to this topic, if we had a hypothetical machine that can copy objects (rather than requiring schematics) now you could get into a debate about whether it is acceptable (moraly or otherwise) to copy someone else's objects without their permission. Or, even copying an object without the permission of the original maker of the object (if the object is man-made).
Certainly, there would immediately be laws put in place prohibiting copying someone else's body without their permission. People with desirable bodies, or body parts, would probably become rich selling the rights to copy their body and/or body parts.
With copyright laws the way they are now, it would be illegal to copy an object made by someone without their expressed written permission. It's also interesting to think about what industries this would hit. Physical stores where you walk in to buy objects would eventually no longer exist.
We have one of those at our school actually and I watched it in action, It's pretty sweet. It only makes things out of plastic though. And it took like a good 11 hours to print out a 3 inch cube. While that could improve someday, it's kind of inefficient. Oh, we also have one that prints 3D ceramic too. (granted some of the things printed are molds to cast bronze objects or w/e). But still, you have to buy the machine and the plastic to feed into the machine, plus the resin to hold up free-standing parts.
I guess the phrase "Everyone is unique." would not exist for famous and renowned people, eh?
I truly think the human race would be wiped out very soon after creating technology like this. The overwhelming possibility for a single individual to do serious amounts of harm is too hard to look past. Even if the majority of people only want to do good, there will always be the bad eggs that just want to watch the world burn. Imagine terrorists duplicating bombs, themselves, weapons, nuclear material, etc. I think it's important to realize that with all the good things technology brings, it can also be used for eviiiiiilllll.
Yes, most wars are fought over tangible things, but just as many wars are fought over ideas. Ideas such as religion would, in my opinion, become even more popular then they are now, considering people will grow very tired of their material lifestyles and look elsewhere for satisfaction. If I had the ability to basically create anything I wanted, physical objects would lose their appeal to me over time. Wars would continue to be fought over stupid shit, and even more people will die because their wouldn't be a weapon budget.
And their would always be that cunt copying Justin Bieber and Rebecca Black. >.<
Quote from: Loganvz123 on November 01, 2011, 04:11:27 AM
Rebecca Black. >.<
As long as we all get one, I wouldn't mind.
No but seriously, this invention would end the world. If it didn't, then I'd definitely pirate the shit out of everything. There would be no more need for money so there's no reason for people to want copyrights of their product.
Even if there somehow was still a need for money, I'd pirate it. Even if I was the only person on earth who had the machine, I'd pirate. No !@#$s given.
I think #2 should be a machine that steals the product from someone else, so that they no longer have it, instead of just copying. That would bring in all these moral questions and such.
Quote from: DarkTrinity on October 31, 2011, 07:02:10 PM
Quote from: Lingus on October 31, 2011, 06:33:12 PM
What I think is interesting is that this may not be too far from reality. They currently have 3D printers that "print" an object in 3 dimensions out of various different substances. You can, right now, print out somewhat complex machines. Further down the road, this might allow someone to print out small to medium sized electronic devices.
The interesting thing comes in when you realize that people will no longer be purchasing products, but purchasing the schematics for those products and "printing" the product in their own home. So if you look at it that way, pirating will actually provide people with physical items. This changes the whole thing about copying an item off a shelf and stealing it from a hypothetical debate, to a real debate (sorry if I'm jumping back to the other thread here).
Relating that back to this topic, if we had a hypothetical machine that can copy objects (rather than requiring schematics) now you could get into a debate about whether it is acceptable (moraly or otherwise) to copy someone else's objects without their permission. Or, even copying an object without the permission of the original maker of the object (if the object is man-made).
Certainly, there would immediately be laws put in place prohibiting copying someone else's body without their permission. People with desirable bodies, or body parts, would probably become rich selling the rights to copy their body and/or body parts.
With copyright laws the way they are now, it would be illegal to copy an object made by someone without their expressed written permission. It's also interesting to think about what industries this would hit. Physical stores where you walk in to buy objects would eventually no longer exist.
We have one of those at our school actually and I watched it in action, It's pretty sweet. It only makes things out of plastic though. And it took like a good 11 hours to print out a 3 inch cube. While that could improve someday, it's kind of inefficient. Oh, we also have one that prints 3D ceramic too. (granted some of the things printed are molds to cast bronze objects or w/e). But still, you have to buy the machine and the plastic to feed into the machine, plus the resin to hold up free-standing parts.
True. I was just looking into the future a bit of how that technology could evolve. It's very likely that in 30 years (maybe less?) or so we'll have something that can print things like smart phones. Of course, it won't be cheap at first, but eventually it will be a common household appliance. It's interesting to think how that will play out.
not sure if bate. will nibble.
Quote from: Jake on November 01, 2011, 12:18:16 AM
I truly think the human race would be wiped out very soon after creating technology like this. The overwhelming possibility for a single individual to do serious amounts of harm is too hard to look past. Even if the majority of people only want to do good, there will always be the bad eggs that just want to watch the world burn. Imagine terrorists duplicating bombs, themselves, weapons, nuclear material, etc. I think it's important to realize that with all the good things technology brings, it can also be used for eviiiiiilllll.
I think some people will not because of mutual assured destruction or just because they are nice and don't want to hurt people. And for people who want to see the world burn we could duplicate are defenses, make new planets, etc. I'm basically saying i feel it would befit any side to about equal.
Quote from: Jake on November 01, 2011, 12:18:16 AMIf I had the ability to basically create anything I wanted, physical objects would lose their appeal to me over time.
I would say maybe not to everyone but I understand that it would to a lot of people take some of the value to people. But I have a feeling that the interest would move into what could we do with those objects and what new objects can we invent. Kinda like how we deal with information now.
Quote from: ARTgames on November 01, 2011, 02:04:18 PM
not sure if bate. will nibble.
Quote from: Jake on November 01, 2011, 12:18:16 AM
I truly think the human race would be wiped out very soon after creating technology like this. The overwhelming possibility for a single individual to do serious amounts of harm is too hard to look past. Even if the majority of people only want to do good, there will always be the bad eggs that just want to watch the world burn. Imagine terrorists duplicating bombs, themselves, weapons, nuclear material, etc. I think it's important to realize that with all the good things technology brings, it can also be used for eviiiiiilllll.
I think some people will not because of mutual assured destruction or just because they are nice and don't want to hurt people. And for people who want to see the world burn we could duplicate are defenses, make new planets, etc. I'm basically saying i feel it would befit any side to about equal.
Unfortunately, I don't think it would balance out. If you want to go with the theory that we could duplicate planets... well, then it would only take 1 person to duplicate a large enough mass to throw our entire planet out of it's orbit with the sun. Or duplicate a bunch of plutonium to create enough nukes to blow up the world, or whatever. If a terrorist got their hands on a dirty bomb, they could make as many duplicates as they want from that. Don't forget there is also the potential of people making huge mistakes in duplicating objects, even if they mean to do good. Say, for example, we start duplicating huge land masses and eventually start effing up the climate of the earth, or it's orbit, etc. Basically, every time new technology comes out, you HAVE to assume the worst, because history has shown that technology, while usually being used for good, can be used to inflict a lot of damage in the world. It was just a few decades ago that our world almost ended because of our inability to control the technology WE created. Why would we assume that wouldn't happen again if newer technology is even more dangerous and accessible than ever before? Honestly, it's impossible to know what the hell would happen, not to mention there's a huge amount of missing factors. For example, is mass created or just converted? How long does it take to duplicate large objects? How easy is it to obtain a duplicator? Either way, I don't have high hopes for humanity if something like that ever arises.
Quote from: Jake on November 01, 2011, 12:18:16 AMIf I had the ability to basically create anything I wanted, physical objects would lose their appeal to me over time. Quote
I would say maybe not to everyone but I understand that it would to a lot of people take some of the value to people. But I have a feeling that the interest would move into what could we do with those objects and what new objects can we invent. Kinda like how we deal with information now.
Oh yeah, no doubt. Chaos and I were debating this last night, and we agreed that the world would move more towards creative endeavors, rather than people living simply to to acquire new things.
If there existed such a type of technology, I would also assume there would exist a mechanism for manipulating matter at the subatomic level to form a given object(like how we can manipulate pixels in an art program as well as performing other complex operations), as that is just a more complex extension of the technology, and you'd already have to have such precise manipulation to physically copy objects.
In which case I could easily see a enormous jump in technology available from the already highly-advanced library of knowledge we'd have to have to make those things in the first place.
The turn humankind would take, I presume, would then matter on who did WHAT first with everything available. I could see matter to energy conversions becoming possible and easily controlled(e.g. converting organic matter into electricity still 'encoded' with the means to convert back), I could also see somebody gaining the means of making a massive doomsday machine.
Basically, an enormous number of options open up. I could see virtual universes of sorts being made, powered by gates and mechanisms at the atomic and possibly subatomic level. In which case so many things could happen that even with the menagerie of things available to everyone, I don't think people will get bored with it anytime soon.
I doubt piracy would be an issue anymore since you could create anything given you just had enough of the particles you needed as well as enough energy.
Even though I tend to always want to look at the worst possible outcome of something, I would think that if enough time was put into this, solely because of what a big deal it would be in the scientific community(hopefully modern politics will be defunct), I think we would be careful enough to prevent it from at least completely eradicating large portions of this side of the universe.
..although I am fully aware of humanity's bad apples.
Quote from: Jake on November 01, 2011, 07:27:20 PM
Quote from: ARTgames on November 01, 2011, 02:04:18 PM
not sure if bate. will nibble.
Quote from: Jake on November 01, 2011, 12:18:16 AM
I truly think the human race would be wiped out very soon after creating technology like this. The overwhelming possibility for a single individual to do serious amounts of harm is too hard to look past. Even if the majority of people only want to do good, there will always be the bad eggs that just want to watch the world burn. Imagine terrorists duplicating bombs, themselves, weapons, nuclear material, etc. I think it's important to realize that with all the good things technology brings, it can also be used for eviiiiiilllll.
I think some people will not because of mutual assured destruction or just because they are nice and don't want to hurt people. And for people who want to see the world burn we could duplicate are defenses, make new planets, etc. I'm basically saying i feel it would befit any side to about equal.
Unfortunately, I don't think it would balance out. If you want to go with the theory that we could duplicate planets... well, then it would only take 1 person to duplicate a large enough mass to throw our entire planet out of it's orbit with the sun. Or duplicate a bunch of plutonium to create enough nukes to blow up the world, or whatever. If a terrorist got their hands on a dirty bomb, they could make as many duplicates as they want from that. Don't forget there is also the potential of people making huge mistakes in duplicating objects, even if they mean to do good. Say, for example, we start duplicating huge land masses and eventually start effing up the climate of the earth, or it's orbit, etc. Basically, every time new technology comes out, you HAVE to assume the worst, because history has shown that technology, while usually being used for good, can be used to inflict a lot of damage in the world. It was just a few decades ago that our world almost ended because of our inability to control the technology WE created. Why would we assume that wouldn't happen again if newer technology is even more dangerous and accessible than ever before? Honestly, it's impossible to know what the hell would happen, not to mention there's a huge amount of missing factors. For example, is mass created or just converted? How long does it take to duplicate large objects? How easy is it to obtain a duplicator? Either way, I don't have high hopes for humanity if something like that ever arises.
Well its kinda hard to know what worst is because what that word worst means is different for different people. To the terrorist it would be awesome. And who's to judge bad or good when people are not around anyway?
Non the less its like we are going just going "well infinity" and your like "infinity +1". Lets say a terrorist blows up the whole galaxy. Well lets just duplicate a million galaxy's like the one we have now. Well then what if... etc. Chaos left out its limitations at first, so im taking it as far as it can go. Now i'm assuming this box can make anything at any time that any one can use. As I said I think it really pans out to all sides no matter which one you think is good or bad since we can just make as many counter's as attacks and likewise.
But I agree that if we had limitations it would be different than this like what you said at the end of the post.
Quote from: ARTgames on November 01, 2011, 09:21:29 PM
Quote from: Jake on November 01, 2011, 07:27:20 PM
Quote from: ARTgames on November 01, 2011, 02:04:18 PM
not sure if bate. will nibble.
Quote from: Jake on November 01, 2011, 12:18:16 AM
I truly think the human race would be wiped out very soon after creating technology like this. The overwhelming possibility for a single individual to do serious amounts of harm is too hard to look past. Even if the majority of people only want to do good, there will always be the bad eggs that just want to watch the world burn. Imagine terrorists duplicating bombs, themselves, weapons, nuclear material, etc. I think it's important to realize that with all the good things technology brings, it can also be used for eviiiiiilllll.
I think some people will not because of mutual assured destruction or just because they are nice and don't want to hurt people. And for people who want to see the world burn we could duplicate are defenses, make new planets, etc. I'm basically saying i feel it would befit any side to about equal.
Unfortunately, I don't think it would balance out. If you want to go with the theory that we could duplicate planets... well, then it would only take 1 person to duplicate a large enough mass to throw our entire planet out of it's orbit with the sun. Or duplicate a bunch of plutonium to create enough nukes to blow up the world, or whatever. If a terrorist got their hands on a dirty bomb, they could make as many duplicates as they want from that. Don't forget there is also the potential of people making huge mistakes in duplicating objects, even if they mean to do good. Say, for example, we start duplicating huge land masses and eventually start effing up the climate of the earth, or it's orbit, etc. Basically, every time new technology comes out, you HAVE to assume the worst, because history has shown that technology, while usually being used for good, can be used to inflict a lot of damage in the world. It was just a few decades ago that our world almost ended because of our inability to control the technology WE created. Why would we assume that wouldn't happen again if newer technology is even more dangerous and accessible than ever before? Honestly, it's impossible to know what the hell would happen, not to mention there's a huge amount of missing factors. For example, is mass created or just converted? How long does it take to duplicate large objects? How easy is it to obtain a duplicator? Either way, I don't have high hopes for humanity if something like that ever arises.
Well its kinda hard to know what worst is because what that word worst means is different for different people. To the terrorist it would be awesome. And who's to judge bad or good when people are not around anyway?
Non the less its like we are going just going "well infinity" and your like "infinity +1". Lets say a terrorist blows up the whole galaxy. Well lets just duplicate a million galaxy's like the one we have now. Well then what if... etc. Chaos left out its limitations at first, so im taking it as far as it can go. Now i'm assuming this box can make anything at any time that any one can use. As I said I think it really pans out to all sides no matter which one you think is good or bad since we can just make as many counter's as attacks and likewise.
But I agree that if we had limitations it would be different than this like what you said at the end of the post.
Lets not turn this into a conversation about subjective morality. I'm simply saying that according to my own view of good and bad, it would be horrible if humanity was destroyed, and I wouldn't be surprised if most people agreed. If somebody destroys the galaxy, there's no one upping them, because we're all dead already. Nuclear weapons cannot defend you once somebody starts firing them AT you. Your both dead. There's no one upping each other anymore.
Well I bought up morality just to state why we should not do that. But I will stay away form it to not get off topic. But I think we need more limitations on that this box is. I am taking this too extrema and judging your post off what I think this box can do and I will say that's not right. sorry about that Jake.
But if this device was something that was like a box that changed matter to what you want and it was a some what limited use I can see how it could fall into the wrong hands and end up blowing up the world. And if its the goal to all live that you want to do (which i agree with) than that would be indeed a really bad thing.
I'm surprised no one posted this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ-aWFYT_SU&feature=related
HIDE YO HAMMER, HIDE YO WRENCH, THEY CLONING EREBODY OUT HERE.
Quote from: T-Rok on November 04, 2011, 09:28:13 PM
I'm surprised no one posted this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQ-aWFYT_SU&feature=related
HIDE YO HAMMER, HIDE YO WRENCH, THEY CLONING EREBODY OUT HERE.
We have one of those at my school. I've printed out a wrench like that guy as and a piggy bank before. :3