To keep the Anxiety Issues thread from going further off topic than it already is, and because Mystery is too mysterious to make threads, I have made a religion thread.
We were last discussing morality or something. This reminds me of a common argument saying without religion(specifically Christianity) there would be no morality. However, as Mystery said, one of the biggest reasons some people are atheist is because they actually studied their religion. It is immoral to kill people, yet many religions have stories of murder being glorified. I also think anyone who grew up in a place without any religion but instead were taught logic and reason would look at many of our religions and think of them as violent and manipulative constructs made by humans.
Opinions?
Quote from: Yankyal on January 28, 2012, 07:49:37 PM
However, as Mystery said, one of the biggest reasons some people are atheist is because they actually studied their religion.
I wanted to focus in on this sentence. I think he is right, I think there are lots of people who make uninformed decisions about religion, whether it be simply because their parents are religious so they just follow them or whether the people they are around are also of that religion.
I myself am a Christian, however it is a decision I made by carefully looking at the Bible, learning about it and then making my decision. However I do know people that just claim to be Christian and after they find out more (specifically the things that aren't all that attractive to them or mean they need to alter their lifestyle) just give up and turn away from religion.
Part of that is also that people don't understand, they read in the Bible (or the respective book for other religions) about sacrifice, be it of people or animals, and they see that as immoral.
Another huge issue I believe is other people of that religion turn others away from it. I've spoken to people who have deliberately kept away from Christians because they once knew a Christian who would throw it in their face all the time, or publicly make it look like they were performing some kind of cult rituals when they prayed or whatever.
Quote from: Yankyal on January 28, 2012, 07:49:37 PM
To keep the Anxiety Issues thread from going further off topic than it already is, and because Mystery is too mysterious to make threads, I have made a religion thread.
We were last discussing morality or something. This reminds me of a common argument saying without religion(specifically Christianity) there would be no morality. However, as Mystery said, one of the biggest reasons some people are atheist is because they actually studied their religion. It is immoral to kill people, yet many religions have stories of murder being glorified. I also think anyone who grew up in a place without any religion but instead were taught logic and reason would look at many of our religions and think of them as violent and manipulative constructs made by humans.
Opinions?
I'll just say one thing before discussion gets started.
The most common problem I have with people in a religious context(I am
specifically referring to the ones who conduct themselves poorly, automatically excluding several)is trying to force their thoughts onto others, be it militant Christians, Muslims, Jews, atheists, etc.
However, asking questions such as 'Why do you think this way' to clarify and responding well as well as raising topic to talk about is quite enjoyable, and I've found it to really give meaning to everyone's respective feelings.
I'd be ready to respond to any topic anyone wants to bring up.
Quote from: Yankyal on January 28, 2012, 07:49:37 PM
I also think anyone who grew up in a place without any religion but instead were taught logic and reason would look at many of our religions and think of them as violent and manipulative constructs made by humans.
I think that is a possibility, but religion is so easy to conform to one's own way of thinking/living that new meanings can develop. As a whole, religion has really changed a lot. An example of this is fundamentalism, which has really only started to 'bear fruit' since the late 19th century.
EDIT: Everyone should also note I've been an atheist my entire life. My parents didn't force me to go to church, nor did they go. They let me make my own decision.
I believe what I logically determine to be true based on the available evidence. In fact, I'm wholly convinced that Jesus Christ is a fictional character in the new testament.
That being said, I don't see any problem with people following any religion as long as it doesn't interfere with social advancement. Unfortunately, it very often does interfere with social advancement. Laws restricting gay marriage and atheist senators are totally counterproductive and only exist (in a few states) as a result of religious preaching. There are an incredible number of examples of religious beliefs directly interfering with social advancement and until a solution to this can be found, I give religion a thumbs down.
i dont really care about any of it to be honest. I just hope that when i die theres something else out there, everything else is just noise.
Quote from: TANK on January 28, 2012, 10:44:09 PM
i dont really care about any of it to be honest. I just hope that when i die theres something else out there, everything else is just noise.
Wow that is seriously dangerous thinking broham. Please appreciate your life. I hope you don't lay on your deathbed in your final hours and regret not living life to the fullest because you had the hopes that there was something more.
Quote from: Matty_Richo
I wanted to focus in on this sentence. I think he is right, I think there are lots of people who make uninformed decisions about religion, whether it be simply because their parents are religious so they just follow them or whether the people they are around are also of that religion.
I myself am a Christian, however it is a decision I made by carefully looking at the Bible, learning about it and then making my decision. However I do know people that just claim to be Christian and after they find out more (specifically the things that aren't all that attractive to them or mean they need to alter their lifestyle) just give up and turn away from religion.
Part of that is also that people don't understand, they read in the Bible (or the respective book for other religions) about sacrifice, be it of people or animals, and they see that as immoral.
Another huge issue I believe is other people of that religion turn others away from it. I've spoken to people who have deliberately kept away from Christians because they once knew a Christian who would throw it in their face all the time, or publicly make it look like they were performing some kind of cult rituals when they prayed or whatever.
I myself turned away because I found some of God's actions and doctrines to be morally reprehensible. All the killing being done by his hands, such as the global flood, and then him making a doctrine forbidding murder.
no i appreciate my life, i just dont understand all the drama and bullshit and thats what i think is noise. Like gay marriage for example a man is made to love a women, for whatever reason some people dont have these same intended by nature feelings. Maybe they are ahead of the game and are beginning to evolve into asexuals like we will have penises and vaginas or something( i dont know )or they just want to be weird (there are people like that). Its still against the christian religion which in my point of veiw makes sense, have your relation and dont get married, its for man and women not man and man deal with it.
I'm not to interested in expressing my every thought about religion because I've got to much to say. But I will say this.. I am !@#$ing sick of getting preached to every !@#$ing day of the week that I go to work. I'm waiting for a bus, I'm NOT waiting to be enlightened about how true there religion is and how great of a guy Jesus was. I'm just not interested.
Quote from: Torch on January 28, 2012, 09:23:46 PM
I believe what I logically determine to be true based on the available evidence. In fact, I'm wholly convinced that Jesus Christ is a fictional character in the new testament.
Some of the people who wrote the Bible knew Jesus, one of them being John, one of Jesus's 12 disciples. There are also various historical documents written by atheists that even talk about Jesus Christ, although they all do nothing but try to prove that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Historians also acknowledge that Jesus was a real person. This kind of evidence proves that Jesus existed, but the world to this day is still trying to figure out whether or not he was who he claimed he is. You can't say that he didn't exist, only that he was either the Messiah, a liar, or a lunatic. It's your choice which you believe.
I myself am a Christian (obviously), for various reasons that I can't list without starting a religious debate.
Quote from: TANK on January 28, 2012, 11:08:08 PM
no i appreciate my life, i just dont understand all the drama and bullshit and thats what i think is noise. Like gay marriage for example a man is made to love a women, for whatever reason some people dont have these same intended by nature feelings. Maybe they are ahead of the game and are beginning to evolve into asexuals like we will have penises and vaginas or something( i dont know )or they just want to be weird (there are people like that). Its still against the christian religion which in my point of veiw makes sense, have your relation and dont get married, its for man and women not man and man deal with it.
Seriously, people like you are the problem with society. If two consenting adults want to get married, I see absolutely no reason why that should be an issue. Why is it perfectly ok for two straight people to get divorced and remarried 6 times, but a loving same-sex couple of 10 years can't have the same rights? Most gay people I have met don't "just want to be weird". That's who they are, whether you or any Christians like it or not. This type of limited, narrow-minded view of the world is hindering the advancement of the human race. Why is it so damn hard to let people live their life how they want to live it, instead of trying to mold everyone to what you want them to be? You can have your beliefs, but stop imposing them on people simply because you don't understand any mindset other than your own. I'm not saying churches should be forced to marry gay couples, I'm saying that our government has absolutely no reason not to recognize a marriage between two consenting adults. What is so darn horrible about giving the same benefits to a gay couple that all straight couples already get to receive, even if that straight couple doesn't even love each other? 30 years from now, when gay marriage is legalized across America, you'll be the one dealing with it. As much as people like you try to limit the advancement of our species, there will always be more intelligent, more caring people, pushing it in the opposite direction. It's time you stop trying to drag us down and hop on the freedom train.
Quote from: 11clock on January 29, 2012, 12:19:55 AM
Quote from: Torch on January 28, 2012, 09:23:46 PM
I believe what I logically determine to be true based on the available evidence. In fact, I'm wholly convinced that Jesus Christ is a fictional character in the new testament.
Some of the people who wrote the Bible knew Jesus, one of them being John, one of Jesus's 12 disciples. There are also various historical documents written by atheists that even talk about Jesus Christ, although they all do nothing but try to prove that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Historians also acknowledge that Jesus was a real person. This kind of evidence proves that Jesus existed, but the world to this day is still trying to figure out whether or not he was who he claimed he is. You can't say that he didn't exist, only that he was either the Messiah, a liar, or a lunatic. It's your choice which you believe.
I myself am a Christian (obviously), for various reasons that I can't list without starting a religious debate.
What's wrong with a religious debate? I've found it very informative and thought provoking to debate my views. It helps me weed out the weak view points and help enforce the strong ones. Also, jesus has not been proven to exist. I can say that there's no reason to believe he exists until you prove otherwise. And no, there is no
proof for his existence, only a weak amount of evidence mainly found in the bible.
Quote from: 11clock on January 29, 2012, 12:19:55 AM
Some of the people who wrote the Bible knew Jesus, one of them being John, one of Jesus's 12 disciples. There are also various historical documents written by atheists that even talk about Jesus Christ, although they all do nothing but try to prove that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Historians also acknowledge that Jesus was a real person. This kind of evidence proves that Jesus existed
I think there's a bit on confusion here. I'm saying Jesus is a fictional character in a historical document (the new testament). You're citing Jesus' existence using more historical documents O_O Saying that "This kind of evidence
proves that Jesus existed"
Could you imagine if I accused a man of murder, went to court and said "This man murdered someone, it says so in this book that I wrote. Look, I even wrote another book that says that I was right there and saw it happen. And there's a few other books my friends wrote that also say it happened! Even a few atheists believe me!"
My case would be thrown right out, I can guarantee that "This kind of evidence" doesn't
prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact, it's not even half convincing, it's totally ridiculous! And these people even had a motive to falsify his existence, they wanted to spread their beliefs!
I'd love to see actual historical evidence of Jesus, not just written accounts.
As it is, not only is it not proven, it's not even remotely likely. There's a big difference between generally accepted views and rational views.
Quote from: Torch on January 29, 2012, 01:53:48 AM
Quote from: 11clock on January 29, 2012, 12:19:55 AM
Some of the people who wrote the Bible knew Jesus, one of them being John, one of Jesus's 12 disciples. There are also various historical documents written by atheists that even talk about Jesus Christ, although they all do nothing but try to prove that Jesus wasn't the Messiah. Historians also acknowledge that Jesus was a real person. This kind of evidence proves that Jesus existed
I think there's a bit on confusion here. I'm saying Jesus is a fictional character in a historical document (the new testament). You're citing Jesus' existence using more historical documents O_O Saying that "This kind of evidence proves that Jesus existed"
Could you imagine if I accused a man of murder, went to court and said "This man murdered someone, it says so in this book that I wrote. Look, I even wrote another book that says that I was right there and saw it happen. And there's a few other books my friends wrote that also say it happened! Even a few atheists believe me!"
My case would be thrown right out, I can guarantee that "This kind of evidence" doesn't prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact, it's not even half convincing, it's totally ridiculous! And these people even had a motive to falsify his existence, they wanted to spread their beliefs!
I'd love to see actual historical evidence of Jesus, not just written accounts.
As it is, not only is it not proven, it's not even remotely likely. There's a big difference between generally accepted views and rational views.
Wasn't there some evidence that was being investigated a couple years back (wanna say around 07-08) where archaeologists might have discovered the tomb of Christ, body and all? I honestly didn't keep up with it, as so far as I remember it sort of fell off the radar.
Honestly, that sort of thing actually goes against what I personally believe. Not in the Catholic sense that I was brought up upon (and have since fallen away from, a great distance). My beliefs at this stage in my life are less "Praise Jesus", but rather, be happy and live the life you want to live. If those remains were in fact that remains of Christ, the entire new testament is null and void. If Jesus's remains still exist, he did not resurrect from the dead, he didn't ascend to heaven, he was a mortal human being, and that realization would crush centuries of religious beliefs. That alone goes against what I believe. Sure, no one could prove it, how they even speculated that it could be Jesus's tomb is beyond me (hence the distaste I have), but lets say someone came forward and said, "Yep, we found him, bones and all!" Could you imagine the distraught it would cause upon the entire Christian faith? Do you really want to have to deal with that? That is taking the faith of so many human beings, and running it into the ground, destabilizing the entire Christian religion and demoralizing it's following. THAT is oppressing your beliefs (or rather, lack of) upon others and the damage it would do is
very substantial. There's no proof it could it be the Christian Messiah, since for all we know, there's a possibility he was a fictional character. Why would someone say, "Hey, we found a tomb out in the middle east, must be Jesus"? It makes no sense.
Either way, I'm all for debate, I'm all for factual and emotional expression so long as people can remain open-minded, but for the love of God (and this is not directed at anyone in particular thus far), do
not mistake your faith for fact. The minute you try to impose your beliefs upon someone else here, telling them that what you believe is the only acceptable answer, that is the minute you need to remove yourself from this conversation.
Quote from: 11clock on January 29, 2012, 12:03:22 AM
I'm NOT Christian because of peer pressure. While I was raised a Christian, I later on looked at the Bible logically and saw some things about it that I started questioning. My twin brother has been able to answer every question I had about the Bible, so now I find it more logical to follow the Bible than to become an atheist. 40 people who lived in different time periods and three different languages coming up with such a huge lie I find to be very unlikely, and there's also the fact that some of the writers of the Bible knew Jesus in person. I've never fallen under peer pressure, and probably never will.
Please don't come up with such broad generalizations, thank you.
If you were born in Iraq, you'd be a Muslim. If you were born in India, you'd be a Hindu. If you were born in Ancient Greece, you'd pray to Athena. The religion you follow can easily be explained through geography and culture. The problem is, since you were raised Christian, it's extremely hard to see the flaws in that religion because they seem so normal. If you were never taught a thing about Christianity, and somebody introduced you to the bible at age 18, would you really believe the far-fetched stories? Moses parting the red sea, Jesus turning water into wine, 2 of everyone animal on an arc that survived the flooding of the entire world? The answer is no. In fact, if you only had the bible and didn't have other viewpoints from friends and relatives about what the bible was teaching, your version of Christianity would be entirely different than what you follow now. The message the bible is trying to convey can be received in thousands of ways.
If you take your faith seriously, it's important to be skeptical about it. When I was around 17, I took my faith very seriously. I wanted to prove Christianity correct. I didn't just bounce some ideas off a family member, I debated people. I tried to argue points of intelligent design, irreducible complexity, the hard problem of consciousness, to prove my religion correct. After a while, I realized that the rationalizations I was using to prove my religion were actually casting doubts in my mind on it's validity. If you're relatively satisfied with your beliefs, you haven't studied them enough. If you want to read something that will really rock your world, give the "Dossier of Reason" a read. Written by a former youth pastor, he goes into great detail about some of the fallacies committed when arguing for religion.
Quote from: Jake on January 29, 2012, 02:31:53 AM
If you were born in Iraq, you'd be a Muslim. If you were born in India, you'd be a Hindu. If you were born in Ancient Greece, you'd pray to Athena. The religion you follow can easily be explained through geography and culture. The problem is, since you were raised Christian, it's extremely hard to see the flaws in that religion because they seem so normal.
That's an interesting argument. I read a bit of the Dossier of Reason and I saw that. I thought it was pretty cool.
gay marriage is against christianity and it seams gay people just have to have it, why for who knows maybe because they cant have it? people want what they cant have i suppose. I think since its such a big thing to the christian religion...and marriage was originally created by the church for a man and a women im pretty sure so i dont understand why gays cant let it slide. sorry im not on the bandwagon for freedom and im dragging everybody down. It just seams to me that gays are just picking fights with a order thats been set in stone and been doing there own thing before a peen even ever touched a hairy mans lips. About the weird comment, there are people who are gay just to be different, i knew a few back when, and thats what i meant.
note: i have nothing against gays i find they are the easiest people to get along with. I just dont understand why they need to get married :\.
Quote from: TANK on January 29, 2012, 07:54:45 AM
gay marriage is against christianity and it seams gay people just have to have it, why for who knows maybe because they cant have it? people want what they cant have i suppose. I think since its such a big thing to the christian religion...and marriage was originally created by the church for a man and a women im pretty sure so i dont understand why gays cant let it slide. sorry im not on the bandwagon for freedom and im dragging everybody down. It just seams to me that gays are just picking fights with a order thats been set in stone and been doing there own thing before a peen even ever touched a hairy mans lips. About the weird comment, there are people who are gay just to be different, i knew a few back when, and thats what i meant.
No, all they want is the lawful(note LAWFUL, as marriage is NOT primarily religious by definition, it's a legal construct) ability to have the same recognition as heterosexuals of them being together.
Personally I find marriage (heterosexual) as a whole hilarious. There is literally NO reason to get married except for religious ones(men surrender MANY things if they happen to get divorced, it's an emotionally charged issue for the woman if they divorce, not to mention what happens to the child), and then half the people who do get married break it off.
Quote from: TANK on January 28, 2012, 11:08:08 PM
no i appreciate my life, i just dont understand all the drama and bullshit and thats what i think is noise. Like gay marriage for example a man is made to love a women, for whatever reason some people dont have these same intended by nature feelings.
Wrong. Homosexuality appears in nature. Pretty often, too, somewhat more than in humans(whether that be because of pressure to be not be gay or it's just less prevalent). Typically homosexual animals are able to care more for others' children, take care of special tasks, and so on. Many animals have bisexual tendencies, too.
Quote from: Torch on January 28, 2012, 09:23:46 PM
I believe what I logically determine to be true based on the available evidence. In fact, I'm wholly convinced that Jesus Christ is a fictional character in the new testament.
That being said, I don't see any problem with people following any religion as long as it doesn't interfere with social advancement. Unfortunately, it very often does interfere with social advancement. Laws restricting gay marriage and atheist senators are totally counterproductive and only exist (in a few states) as a result of religious preaching. There are an incredible number of examples of religious beliefs directly interfering with social advancement and until a solution to this can be found, I give religion a thumbs down.
This is how I am largely. I look at positive vs. negative impact on things like this.
Quote from: Jake on January 29, 2012, 02:31:53 AM
If you were born in Iraq, you'd be a Muslim. If you were born in India, you'd be a Hindu. If you were born in Ancient Greece, you'd pray to Athena. The religion you follow can easily be explained through geography and culture. The problem is, since you were raised Christian, it's extremely hard to see the flaws in that religion because they seem so normal.
This is very true.
Quote from: Scotty on January 29, 2012, 02:12:55 AM
Wasn't there some evidence that was being investigated a couple years back (wanna say around 07-08) where archaeologists might have discovered the tomb of Christ, body and all? I honestly didn't keep up with it, as so far as I remember it sort of fell off the radar.
I watched a couple of episodes of those on the History Channel because I was interested. As far I could tell, it was very difficult to make a judgement on whose body it was conclusively. That was the issue because either the body wasn't there(at which I would say grave robbers probably took the body or something similar) or it was damaged badly. Anyway, yeah, those did fall off the radar, since they couldn't go anywhere from there.
I'll clarify my position a bit more. I'm an almost-gnostic(in other words, as far down the spectrum as possible without saying those things are impossible) atheist, secular humanist, and existentialist. I acknowledge that anything is possible, though from a chance-oriented perspective, many things are so unlikely the chance of them being true might as well be 0, although it's not. If you look at an existential perspective, the chance of EVERYTHING being true is 1/infinity(same chance as above), although depending on what you more or less 'know' about your position in existence, some things are at the same time overwhelmingly more likely than others.
Quote from: TANK on January 29, 2012, 07:54:45 AM
gay marriage is against christianity and it seams gay people just have to have it, why for who knows maybe because they cant have it? people want what they cant have i suppose. I think since its such a big thing to the christian religion...and marriage was originally created by the church for a man and a women im pretty sure so i dont understand why gays cant let it slide. sorry im not on the bandwagon for freedom and im dragging everybody down. It just seams to me that gays are just picking fights with a order thats been set in stone and been doing there own thing before a peen even ever touched a hairy mans lips. About the weird comment, there are people who are gay just to be different, i knew a few back when, and thats what i meant.
note: i have nothing against gays i find they are the easiest people to get along with. I just dont understand why they need to get married :\.
desegregation is against christianity and it seems black people just have to have it, why for who knows maybe because they can't have it? people want what they cant have I suppose. I think since it's a big thing to the christian religion... and segregation was originally created by the church so I don't understand why blacks cant let it slide. sorry im not on the bandwagon for freedom and im dragging everyone down. It just seems to me that blacks are just picking fights with an order thats been set in stone and been picking cotton before they tried to segregate. About the weird comment, being black is a curse from God, I've linched a few back when, and thats what I meant.
note: I have nothing against blacks I find they are easy people to get along with. I just don't understand why they want equal rights.
Quote from: Mystery on January 29, 2012, 10:22:13 AM
Personally I find marriage (heterosexual) as a whole hilarious. There is literally NO reason to get married except for religious ones(men surrender MANY things if they happen to get divorced, it's an emotionally charged issue for the woman if they divorce, not to mention what happens to the child), and then half the people who do get married break it off.
There are A LOT of legal benefits (in Canada at least). You get some pretty significant insurance discounts on auto, home, and life insurance. You get immigration benefits for your family, visitation rights for your spouses property or to visit them in jail. Marriage gives great pension and retirement benefits, you even get huge tax benefits in filing joint tax returns.
Marriage can be VERY beneficial and if you're worried about divorce, you can always get a prenup agreement.
lmfao @ Jake
Quote from: TANK on January 29, 2012, 07:54:45 AM
gay marriage is against christianity and it seams gay people just have to have it, why for who knows maybe because they cant have it? people want what they cant have i suppose. I think since its such a big thing to the christian religion...and marriage was originally created by the church for a man and a women im pretty sure so i dont understand why gays cant let it slide. sorry im not on the bandwagon for freedom and im dragging everybody down. It just seams to me that gays are just picking fights with a order thats been set in stone and been doing there own thing before a peen even ever touched a hairy mans lips. About the weird comment, there are people who are gay just to be different, i knew a few back when, and thats what i meant.
note: i have nothing against gays i find they are the easiest people to get along with. I just dont understand why they need to get married :\.
Marriage is a legal contract supported by the government. If you can ban it based on religious grounds then that would be the government promoting a specific religion which is against Separation of Church and State. Welcome to the constitution homie. Banning gay marriage is unconstitutional.
Quote
I watched a couple of episodes of those on the History Channel because I was interested. As far I could tell, it was very difficult to make a judgement on whose body it was conclusively. That was the issue because either the body wasn't there(at which I would say grave robbers probably took the body or something similar) or it was damaged badly. Anyway, yeah, those did fall off the radar, since they couldn't go anywhere from there.
I'll clarify my position a bit more. I'm an almost-gnostic(in other words, as far down the spectrum as possible without saying those things are impossible) atheist, secular humanist, and existentialist. I acknowledge that anything is possible, though from a chance-oriented perspective, many things are so unlikely the chance of them being true might as well be 0, although it's not. If you look at an existential perspective, the chance of EVERYTHING being true is 1/infinity(same chance as above), although depending on what you more or less 'know' about your position in existence, some things are at the same time overwhelmingly more likely than others.
The same technology that dated his body is the same technology that has dated the earth to be far more than the calculated 6,000 years in the bible. Maybe Jesus was just a normal guy with amazing public speaking, but what the bible says about any of his holy endeavors has ZERO evidence.
Also another reason why I became atheist, look at the Ark. I mean, really. There are millions of species of animals, yet Noah fit them on his hand crafted boat and fed them for 40 days(somehow). Then he left the Ark to a desolate wasteland which would have destroyed 99% of life(including vegetation), and somehow just goes around surviving. This on top of the fact that a supposedly loving god just wiped out the entire planet of human beings has pretty much invalidated anything Christians or the Bible says. Can anyone answer why god killed the entire earth, or how Noah could have logically accomplished that when not even the greatest of our technologies could do even a fraction of that?
The most amazing thing I see about religion is how it last so long. I know its a way of life for some people and gets passed down etc, but how it got there and how it stayed so long is interesting. I mean think of the mind share and notability the words God and Jesus have. If I where an adverting company this would be my holy grail.
Quote from: Torch on January 29, 2012, 11:11:53 AM
Quote from: Mystery on January 29, 2012, 10:22:13 AM
Personally I find marriage (heterosexual) as a whole hilarious. There is literally NO reason to get married except for religious ones(men surrender MANY things if they happen to get divorced, it's an emotionally charged issue for the woman if they divorce, not to mention what happens to the child), and then half the people who do get married break it off.
There are A LOT of legal benefits (in Canada at least). You get some pretty significant insurance discounts on auto, home, and life insurance. You get immigration benefits for your family, visitation rights for your spouses property or to visit them in jail. Marriage gives great pension and retirement benefits, you even get huge tax benefits in filing joint tax returns.
Marriage can be VERY beneficial and if you're worried about divorce, you can always get a prenup agreement.
Let me rephrase what I said.
I am aware of the numerous benefits that marriage bestows onto people legally(even more so in certain areas, like all you said you guys get in Canada).
I, however, recognize that most people almost never marry just to get those benefits. They do it for personal/religious reasons. The benefits are just icing on the cake and essentially not a factor(if it is, it's a small one) in their decision.
And when people divorce(at least here in AMURICA), they usually didn't think of getting a prenup beforehand.
Quote from: Yankyal on January 29, 2012, 11:21:16 AM
The same technology that dated his body is the same technology that has dated the earth to be far more than the calculated 6,000 years in the bible. Maybe Jesus was just a normal guy with amazing public speaking, but what the bible says about any of his holy endeavors has ZERO evidence.
I know his body was dated. My point is, as well as I can remember, they couldn't definitively prove it was Jesus. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, as my memory on that topic is rusty.
Quote from: Yankyal on January 29, 2012, 11:21:16 AM
Also another reason why I became atheist, look at the Ark. I mean, really. There are millions of species of animals, yet Noah fit them on his hand crafted boat and fed them for 40 days(somehow). Then he left the Ark to a desolate wasteland which would have destroyed 99% of life(including vegetation), and somehow just goes around surviving. This on top of the fact that a supposedly loving god just wiped out the entire planet of human beings has pretty much invalidated anything Christians or the Bible says. Can anyone answer why god killed the entire earth, or how Noah could have logically accomplished that when not even the greatest of our technologies could do even a fraction of that?
You could say this for nigh every story in the Bible.
Quote from: Jake on January 29, 2012, 10:28:29 AM
Quote from: TANK on January 29, 2012, 07:54:45 AM
gay marriage is against christianity and it seams gay people just have to have it, why for who knows maybe because they cant have it? people want what they cant have i suppose. I think since its such a big thing to the christian religion...and marriage was originally created by the church for a man and a women im pretty sure so i dont understand why gays cant let it slide. sorry im not on the bandwagon for freedom and im dragging everybody down. It just seams to me that gays are just picking fights with a order thats been set in stone and been doing there own thing before a peen even ever touched a hairy mans lips. About the weird comment, there are people who are gay just to be different, i knew a few back when, and thats what i meant.
note: i have nothing against gays i find they are the easiest people to get along with. I just dont understand why they need to get married :\.
desegregation is against christianity and it seems black people just have to have it, why for who knows maybe because they can't have it? people want what they cant have I suppose. I think since it's a big thing to the christian religion... and segregation was originally created by the church so I don't understand why blacks cant let it slide. sorry im not on the bandwagon for freedom and im dragging everyone down. It just seems to me that blacks are just picking fights with an order thats been set in stone and been picking cotton before they tried to segregate. About the weird comment, being black is a curse from God, I've linched a few back when, and thats what I meant.
note: I have nothing against blacks I find they are easy people to get along with. I just don't understand why they want equal rights.
haha i like what you did there, although i dont undertsand why two men making drama about putting a ring on eachothers finger is the same as opressing and whiping black people. I get where you're coming from though.
Quote from: Mystery on January 29, 2012, 12:50:52 PM
Quote from: Torch
There are A LOT of legal benefits (in Canada at least). You get some pretty significant insurance discounts on auto, home, and life insurance. You get immigration benefits for your family, visitation rights for your spouses property or to visit them in jail. Marriage gives great pension and retirement benefits, you even get huge tax benefits in filing joint tax returns.
Marriage can be VERY beneficial and if you're worried about divorce, you can always get a prenup agreement.
Let me rephrase what I said.
I am aware of the numerous benefits that marriage bestows onto people legally(even more so in certain areas, like all you said you guys get in Canada).
I, however, recognize that most people almost never marry just to get those benefits. They do it for personal/religious reasons. The benefits are just icing on the cake and essentially not a factor(if it is, it's a small one) in their decision.
And when people divorce(at least here in AMURICA), they usually didn't think of getting a prenup beforehand.
I think a lot of people also find it slightly offensive to even suggest getting one.. It's kinda like saying you have doubts in your mind that your marriage will last, so you want a back up plan. (and of course, genuine gold-diggers would be really offended ;P )
With the divorce rates these days though, I think it's probably a good idea to get one.
+1 for Jake, he pretty much summed up all my thoughts about what I wanted to say to TANK...
@TANK, if you don't understand "the drama" over it, then maybe you should read what people actually wrote... it's not just about being married, there are legal practices and advantages behind it, also a form of oppression. Maybe I'll just never start a career and sit in the kitchen all day, because so many men opposed to women having a career and we just made a huge fuss over it, and we outnumber men, so we got our way.
I'm curious about any Christian's views on dinosaurs and carbon dating and what-not... because the bible clearly states Earth is 6,000 something years old, where as scientists say billions... I've heard some people say that "dinosaurs never existed and that they were put here by the devil to test our faith in god, blah blah" and I'm curious if people seriously believe that or they have some other thoughts in their minds on it all..
Quote from: TANK on January 29, 2012, 01:55:24 PM
Quote from: Jake on January 29, 2012, 10:28:29 AM
Quote from: TANK on January 29, 2012, 07:54:45 AM
gay marriage is against christianity and it seams gay people just have to have it, why for who knows maybe because they cant have it? people want what they cant have i suppose. I think since its such a big thing to the christian religion...and marriage was originally created by the church for a man and a women im pretty sure so i dont understand why gays cant let it slide. sorry im not on the bandwagon for freedom and im dragging everybody down. It just seams to me that gays are just picking fights with a order thats been set in stone and been doing there own thing before a peen even ever touched a hairy mans lips. About the weird comment, there are people who are gay just to be different, i knew a few back when, and thats what i meant.
note: i have nothing against gays i find they are the easiest people to get along with. I just dont understand why they need to get married :\.
desegregation is against christianity and it seems black people just have to have it, why for who knows maybe because they can't have it? people want what they cant have I suppose. I think since it's a big thing to the christian religion... and segregation was originally created by the church so I don't understand why blacks cant let it slide. sorry im not on the bandwagon for freedom and im dragging everyone down. It just seems to me that blacks are just picking fights with an order thats been set in stone and been picking cotton before they tried to segregate. About the weird comment, being black is a curse from God, I've linched a few back when, and thats what I meant.
note: I have nothing against blacks I find they are easy people to get along with. I just don't understand why they want equal rights.
haha i like what you did there, although i dont undertsand why two men making drama about putting a ring on eachothers finger is the same as opressing and whiping black people. I get where you're coming from though.
It's more like millions of american citizens up in arms over what is pretty much religious oppression. You clearly don't understand the importance of marriage in american society. It's a bit more than "putting a ring on eachothers finger", it's a HUGE part of the american lifestyle. So much of american law and culture is based around marriage and you're promoting excluding American citizens from this because what? They have different beliefs from you? That is the kind of oppressing view that creates religious conflict in the first place.
I STRONGLY recommend rethinking your views on gay marriage.
see i dont have a problem with gay marriage, the church does and they are pretty big and have been around for a while, thats why i dont understand why gays dont let it go. Also you're right im very uninformed about how marriage works on the benefits and disadvanteges but it just seams to me they could do without it..the church pretty much started marriage after all. (not entirely sure on that)
Quote from: TANK on January 29, 2012, 02:57:38 PM
see i dont have a problem with gay marriage, the church does and they are pretty big and have been around for a while, thats why i dont understand why gays dont let it go. Also you're right im very uninformed about how marriage works on the benefits and disadvanteges but it just seams to me they could do without it..the church pretty much started marriage after all. (not entirely sure on that)
Gays don't "let it go" because it is unjust, unconstitutional, oppressive, and restricts them from a ton of benefits. The church didn't start marriage, almost every species in existence has a mating ritual of sorts. Not only that but marriage exists and has existed in almost every culture in the world, since before Christianity even existed and in places when Christianity isn't even an influence.
The church has no patent on marriage and regardless, giving any of the church's views legal authority totally goes against the constitution and human equality as a whole.
I'm curious, what're everyone's thoughts on this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4OK9DmLpCY&feature=g-logo&context=G2a154c7FOAAAAAAAHAA and the more viewed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY&feature=related
He's the one with the 'I Hate Religion, but Love Jesus' video.
I compare him to someone who hates dairy products but loves milk. In other words, a crock.
Quote from: Mystery on January 29, 2012, 04:04:45 PM
I'm curious, what're everyone's thoughts on this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4OK9DmLpCY&feature=g-logo&context=G2a154c7FOAAAAAAAHAA and the more viewed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY&feature=related
He's the one with the 'I Hate Religion, but Love Jesus' video.
I compare him to someone who hates dairy products but loves milk. In other words, a crock.
To be honest it sounds nice, but all he projects is spiced up contradictory messages. If we get to the content of of poems and forget the dramatic music and fairly well done delivery, it doesn't make any sense. Regarding the "Why I Hate Religion but Love Jesus" video, just watch this: http://youtu.be/yBo7Z_abiLE , I feel it addresses most of the bullshit pretty accurately.
Quote from: Mystery on January 29, 2012, 04:04:45 PM
I'm curious, what're everyone's thoughts on this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4OK9DmLpCY&feature=g-logo&context=G2a154c7FOAAAAAAAHAA and the more viewed http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY&feature=related
He's the one with the 'I Hate Religion, but Love Jesus' video.
I compare him to someone who hates dairy products but loves milk. In other words, a crock.
Was also planning on posting the same videos. Here is what TheAmazingAtheist thinks of them: http://youtu.be/jv2SSGSJrB4
http://youtu.be/yBo7Z_abiLE
Both good responses.
EDIT: Ahh Mr Pwnage already linked for one of them.
I know I'm a bit late with this, but Jake, thanks for mentioning The Dossier of Reason, I've been reading through it. The thing that stands out most to me is a point that I mentioned before, it would appear as though he was a Christian simply because his parents were and he was raised that way, and that is something I think is a huge problem, people simply following a religion because it's how they were raised. A lot of people like that just accept it for a while without making an informed and educated decision and often later on fall away from their beliefs for other reasons.
Quote from: DarkTrinity on January 29, 2012, 02:06:18 PM
I'm curious about any Christian's views on dinosaurs and carbon dating and what-not... because the bible clearly states Earth is 6,000 something years old, where as scientists say billions... I've heard some people say that "dinosaurs never existed and that they were put here by the devil to test our faith in god, blah blah" and I'm curious if people seriously believe that or they have some other thoughts in their minds on it all..
Well then I am more than happy to share my views with you.
I definitely believe that dinosaurs did exist, I also believe that the earth is somewhere around the 6,000-10,000 year old mark. In the book of Job it describes a creature called the 'behemoth' that fits the description of a brachiosaurus like creature. This does contradict the theory that dinosaurs died millions of years before humans existed, however it is my personal belief that humans and dinosaurs co-existed and that dinosaurs didn't go extinct until most probably just after the flood, due to the change in environment, lack of food etc. or even [unlikely but possibly] as late as a thousand years ago.
There are many historical documents (including the bible) that talk about creatures that fit the description of dinosaurs, of course the word dinosaur wasn't given to the until early 1800s (correct me if I'm wrong there) so of course it used many other words to describe them, one of the most commonly used terms to describe a creature with that description is 'dragon' which is featured in all manner of mythology, history of different cultures, other religions etc.
As for carbon dating...
I believe that the flood changed a lot of things about the earth, I don't understand the science of it 100% however I do have a pretty good grasp of it, so I'm not going to try and explain it however I will point you in the direction of an article that I think explains it pretty well. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-c14-disprove-the-bible
I hope that covers what you wanted to know DT, if not, feel free to tell me and I'll try to answer you. Also keep in mind that a lot of Christians have a very different belief and there are probably some who think that dinosaurs aren't real and are just bones placed by the devil and whatnot, however the people who say that are generally uninformed on the topic and as far as Christians who have researched this sort of thing, most of them follow the same, or a similar thinking.
Quote from: Matty_Richo on January 29, 2012, 09:46:57 PM
Well then I am more than happy to share my views with you.
I definitely believe that dinosaurs did exist, I also believe that the earth is somewhere around the 6,000-10,000 year old mark. In the book of Job it describes a creature called the 'behemoth' that fits the description of a brachiosaurus like creature. This does contradict the theory that dinosaurs died millions of years before humans existed, however it is my personal belief that humans and dinosaurs co-existed and that dinosaurs didn't go extinct until most probably just after the flood, due to the change in environment, lack of food etc. or even [unlikely but possibly] as late as a thousand years ago.
There are many historical documents (including the bible) that talk about creatures that fit the description of dinosaurs, of course the word dinosaur wasn't given to the until early 1800s (correct me if I'm wrong there) so of course it used many other words to describe them, one of the most commonly used terms to describe a creature with that description is 'dragon' which is featured in all manner of mythology, history of different cultures, other religions etc.
As for carbon dating...
I believe that the flood changed a lot of things about the earth, I don't understand the science of it 100% however I do have a pretty good grasp of it, so I'm not going to try and explain it however I will point you in the direction of an article that I think explains it pretty well. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-c14-disprove-the-bible
Here's what I never understood about the young earth argument. You literally believe that God snapped things into existence and made them appear to be weathered and old, despite their existence being supposedly very new. Somebody who honestly wants to know the truth doesn't try to skew their interpretation of science to fit the bible. They let the evidence speak for itself. it's apparent that the more scientists uncover, the harder it gets for Christians to justify their position. If you believe the earth is 6000-1000 years old, do you also deny evolution?
Take a look at this graph of skin pigmentation in relation to geopgraphy (I apologize that it can't be blown up).
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNSNlWv5Qhv1NDhVhj2O5lVSmGI8WWEet2p5ex9M2M6clOgis7BTEpE4Gx9w)
We can somewhat clearly see that people living north and south of the equator have evolved to accommodate the lack of solar radiation, and are therefore able to absorb higher levels of vitamin D into their skin. People living nearer the equator have evolved to have darker skin, allowing them to maximize their protection against the suns rays by producing more melatonin. As a christian that believes in young earth creationism, you must either argue that God planted people in those locations and gave them that specific color pigmentation to give off the appearance of evolution, or you must argue that evolution is actually occurring, but not at a macro scale. The first argument need not even be addressed. The second one is also insane, because it's not even possible for the skin pigmentation of a species to adjust that much over the course of 6,000-10,000 years.
Quote from: Jake on January 29, 2012, 11:43:20 PM
Quote from: Matty_Richo on January 29, 2012, 09:46:57 PM
Well then I am more than happy to share my views with you.
I definitely believe that dinosaurs did exist, I also believe that the earth is somewhere around the 6,000-10,000 year old mark. In the book of Job it describes a creature called the 'behemoth' that fits the description of a brachiosaurus like creature. This does contradict the theory that dinosaurs died millions of years before humans existed, however it is my personal belief that humans and dinosaurs co-existed and that dinosaurs didn't go extinct until most probably just after the flood, due to the change in environment, lack of food etc. or even [unlikely but possibly] as late as a thousand years ago.
There are many historical documents (including the bible) that talk about creatures that fit the description of dinosaurs, of course the word dinosaur wasn't given to the until early 1800s (correct me if I'm wrong there) so of course it used many other words to describe them, one of the most commonly used terms to describe a creature with that description is 'dragon' which is featured in all manner of mythology, history of different cultures, other religions etc.
As for carbon dating...
I believe that the flood changed a lot of things about the earth, I don't understand the science of it 100% however I do have a pretty good grasp of it, so I'm not going to try and explain it however I will point you in the direction of an article that I think explains it pretty well. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-c14-disprove-the-bible
Here's what I never understood about the young earth argument. You literally believe that God snapped things into existence and made them appear to be weathered and old, despite their existence being supposedly very new. Somebody who honestly wants to know the truth doesn't try to skew their interpretation of science to fit the bible. They let the evidence speak for itself. it's apparent that the more scientists uncover, the harder it gets for Christians to justify their position. If you believe the earth is 6000-1000 years old, do you also deny evolution?
I get what you are saying, and you make a fair point. As far as things that look old and weathered despite being young, I honestly haven't really thought about it much before but thinking about it now, my first thoughts would be that firstly, before the flood, the earth was a very different place and we can't know how things happened before that, and also that the flood itself and the aftermath of the flood could have caused it. But again, this is my uneducated thoughts on that particular matter, and I am happy to do a bit more research on that and get back to you.
I also don't think that evolution is total crap, I think that as the world changes, people, animals and plants change with it too. It's true I don't believe that humans evolved from apes and that I also don't believe in the big bang and whatnot, but I do believe that to an extent evolution is present and real.
Quote from: Jake on January 29, 2012, 11:43:20 PM
Take a look at this graph of skin pigmentation in relation to geopgraphy (I apologize that it can't be blown up).
(http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTNSNlWv5Qhv1NDhVhj2O5lVSmGI8WWEet2p5ex9M2M6clOgis7BTEpE4Gx9w)
We can somewhat clearly see that people living north and south of the equator have evolved to accommodate the lack of solar radiation, and are therefore able to absorb higher levels of vitamin D into their skin. People living nearer the equator have evolved to have darker skin, allowing them to maximize their protection against the suns rays by producing more melatonin. As a christian that believes in young earth creationism, you must either argue that God planted people in those locations and gave them that specific color pigmentation to give off the appearance of evolution, or you must argue that evolution is actually occurring, but not at a macro scale. The first argument need not even be addressed. The second one is also insane, because it's not even possible for the skin pigmentation of a species to adjust that much over the course of 6,000-10,000 years.
I think you raise another very good point here. However since I am a Christian I believe that God is omnipotent, basically he created the world, he knows exactly how everything in the world works and he has created people to fit into how he created the world to work. I think it is very possible that as the earth has slowly changed the people have changed with it. But overall yes, I believe that God created people
ready to live in these conditions, and that people have grown into that over time, partly by evolution and partly because that simply how God created them to live.
One says big bang, other says no. How about I jump in here with what I learned growing up as a Latter Day Saint, more commonly known as Mormon, God created the big bang. Argue over that for awhile, I'm enjoying reading all this.
Matty, you're mixing scientific evidence with religious text, you've created an abomination!
Quote from: Matty_Richo on January 30, 2012, 03:10:21 AM
Quote from: Jake on January 29, 2012, 11:43:20 PM
Quote from: Matty_Richo on January 29, 2012, 09:46:57 PM
Well then I am more than happy to share my views with you.
I definitely believe that dinosaurs did exist, I also believe that the earth is somewhere around the 6,000-10,000 year old mark. In the book of Job it describes a creature called the 'behemoth' that fits the description of a brachiosaurus like creature. This does contradict the theory that dinosaurs died millions of years before humans existed, however it is my personal belief that humans and dinosaurs co-existed and that dinosaurs didn't go extinct until most probably just after the flood, due to the change in environment, lack of food etc. or even [unlikely but possibly] as late as a thousand years ago.
There are many historical documents (including the bible) that talk about creatures that fit the description of dinosaurs, of course the word dinosaur wasn't given to the until early 1800s (correct me if I'm wrong there) so of course it used many other words to describe them, one of the most commonly used terms to describe a creature with that description is 'dragon' which is featured in all manner of mythology, history of different cultures, other religions etc.
As for carbon dating...
I believe that the flood changed a lot of things about the earth, I don't understand the science of it 100% however I do have a pretty good grasp of it, so I'm not going to try and explain it however I will point you in the direction of an article that I think explains it pretty well. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-c14-disprove-the-bible
Here's what I never understood about the young earth argument. You literally believe that God snapped things into existence and made them appear to be weathered and old, despite their existence being supposedly very new. Somebody who honestly wants to know the truth doesn't try to skew their interpretation of science to fit the bible. They let the evidence speak for itself. it's apparent that the more scientists uncover, the harder it gets for Christians to justify their position. If you believe the earth is 6000-1000 years old, do you also deny evolution?
I get what you are saying, and you make a fair point. As far as things that look old and weathered despite being young, I honestly haven't really thought about it much before but thinking about it now, my first thoughts would be that firstly, before the flood, the earth was a very different place and we can't know how things happened before that, and also that the flood itself and the aftermath of the flood could have caused it. But again, this is my uneducated thoughts on that particular matter, and I am happy to do a bit more research on that and get back to you.
The argument that God created the big bang makes much more sense than trying to fit science in with all of the strange things that the bible claims (although the bible never specifically claims how old the earth is). Think about it this way: If God made the laws of the universe, why is it out of the realm of possibility that he designed evolution, or that he designed the original laws so that one day humans would be created? it's a much more elegant explanation than trying to jam two puzzle pieces together that very obviously do not fit. Does it really make sense to believe that God created a planet that looks old when it's actually young, then placed humans on the planet and modified their pigmentation depending on the climate to trick us into believing the world is millions of years old?
QuoteI also don't think that evolution is total crap, I think that as the world changes, people, animals and plants change with it too. It's true I don't believe that humans evolved from apes and that I also don't believe in the big bang and whatnot, but I do believe that to an extent evolution is present and real.
If you believe in micro evolution than there really is no point in not believing in macro evolution. If something changes bit by bit over time, and you give it long enough, it will turn into something completely different. If humans can evolve to adapt their skin pigmentation, why can we not keep evolving in different and more extravagant ways given a long enough amount of time? Here's a perfect analogy explaining why macro evolution is very similar to micro evolution. http://www.thinkatheist.com/photo/this-is-the-best-way-ive-ever?context=featured (http://www.thinkatheist.com/photo/this-is-the-best-way-ive-ever?context=featured)
Quote from: T-Rok on January 30, 2012, 12:37:34 PM
One says big bang, other says no. How about I jump in here with what I learned growing up as a Latter Day Saint, more commonly known as Mormon, God created the big bang. Argue over that for awhile, I'm enjoying reading all this.
This is a common standpoint among fairly free-thinking religious people. A point which can't really be argued over.
Quote from: Torch on January 30, 2012, 02:56:04 PM
Matty, you're mixing scientific evidence with religious text, you've created an abomination!
It's only an abomination when they're doing it wrong.
Quote from: Matty_RichoHowever since I am a Christian I believe that God is omnipotent, basically he created the world, he knows exactly how everything in the world works and he has created people to fit into how he created the world to work. I think it is very possible that as the earth has slowly changed the people have changed with it. But overall yes, I believe that God created people ready to live in these conditions, and that people have grown into that over time, partly by evolution and partly because that simply how God created them to live.
What are your thoughts on vestigiality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vestigiality)?
Quote from: Matty_Richo
As for carbon dating...
I believe that the flood changed a lot of things about the earth, I don't understand the science of it 100% however I do have a pretty good grasp of it, so I'm not going to try and explain it however I will point you in the direction of an article that I think explains it pretty well. http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/nab/does-c14-disprove-the-bible
The website page you links to makes its own assumptions which are bigger problems than the much easier to consider ones of pro-carbon dating, the biggest of that being the rate(which can fluctuate drastically)of which atmospheric conditions
can change.
Also, in response to the website you linked in which I'd like you to answer: If God knows everything about science completely, then why in the flying porkchop did Jesus curse the fig tree when he reached for fruit and found 'nothing but leaves'?
I am aware of the Luke 13:6-9 parable. That didn't give him the right to hurt it, at all. Jesus is perfect. Hurting
anything makes someone imperfect. It was also a fig tree out in the open. The only reason an ordinary person would want to kill a fig tree is if they were using trees specifically on their own land for fruit to clear out those ones which yielded nothing, or if it was growing somewhere they didn't want it on their land(I personally wouldn't harm it in either situation).
I also know about the 'taqsh' argument. To that I say people take the story out of context. Look carefully at how the story is said.
Quote from: Mark 11:12-14, 19-25
The next day as they were leaving Bethany, Jesus was hungry. Seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves, because it was not the season for figs. Then he said to the tree, "May no one ever eat fruit from you again." And his disciples heard him say it.
When evening came, they went out of the city.
In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. "I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, `Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
It says nothing but leaves, but BECAUSE it's being compared to the fact it's not the season for figs. This makes it an relatively safe assumption to say there were taqsh.
And if you still don't think there were taqsh, then Jesus harmed a fig tree just for a lesson of faith which could've easily been accomplished without pain, and as aforementioned, he couldn't have because he's perfect(the other possibility is that he's not perfect, but that is not a stance you would take). Your argument loses either way.
Quote from: T-Rok on January 30, 2012, 12:37:34 PM
One says big bang, other says no. How about I jump in here with what I learned growing up as a Latter Day Saint, more commonly known as Mormon, God created the big bang. Argue over that for awhile, I'm enjoying reading all this.
Do you think it's possible if not most likely that the big bang wasn't created by a God? I don't really see any evidence to support this theory.
Quote from: Torch on January 30, 2012, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: T-Rok on January 30, 2012, 12:37:34 PM
One says big bang, other says no. How about I jump in here with what I learned growing up as a Latter Day Saint, more commonly known as Mormon, God created the big bang. Argue over that for awhile, I'm enjoying reading all this.
Do you think it's possible if not most likely that the big bang wasn't created by a God? I don't really see any evidence to support this theory.
Anything is possible. Hell, you could believe a flying spaghetti monster created everything for all I care. Plus, I also don't see any evidence to deny this either, do you?
Well then it's final. A flying spaghetti monster created everything. Glad we all agree.
Quote from: T-Rok on January 30, 2012, 08:30:35 PM
Quote from: Torch on January 30, 2012, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: T-Rok on January 30, 2012, 12:37:34 PM
One says big bang, other says no. How about I jump in here with what I learned growing up as a Latter Day Saint, more commonly known as Mormon, God created the big bang. Argue over that for awhile, I'm enjoying reading all this.
Do you think it's possible if not most likely that the big bang wasn't created by a God? I don't really see any evidence to support this theory.
Anything is possible. Hell, you could believe a flying spaghetti monster created everything for all I care. Plus, I also don't see any evidence to deny this either, do you?
Well then it's final. A flying spaghetti monster created everything. Glad we all agree.
Being unable to prove something does not exist does not prove it's existence. And yes, I understand you are joking, but some people actually don't understand the fallacy in that logic :p.
Quote from: T-Rok on January 30, 2012, 08:30:35 PM
Quote from: Torch on January 30, 2012, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: T-Rok on January 30, 2012, 12:37:34 PM
One says big bang, other says no. How about I jump in here with what I learned growing up as a Latter Day Saint, more commonly known as Mormon, God created the big bang. Argue over that for awhile, I'm enjoying reading all this.
Do you think it's possible if not most likely that the big bang wasn't created by a God? I don't really see any evidence to support this theory.
Anything is possible. Hell, you could believe a flying spaghetti monster created everything for all I care. Plus, I also don't see any evidence to deny this either, do you?
Well then it's final. A flying spaghetti monster created everything. Glad we all agree.
What Torch is saying is that it's safer to say 'we don't know what caused the Big Bang' without evidence then to outright state what caused it. This goes for anything for me. Better to just say you've got no clue than to claim to be saying things you can't verify. If something is both an unfalsifiable and an unprovable concept, you may as well think nothing of it.
Appealing to lack of evidence is a fallacy which doesn't deserve anyone's attention, though I see the joke and I appreciate its humor. :P
Quote from: T-Rok on January 30, 2012, 08:30:35 PM
Quote from: Torch on January 30, 2012, 08:22:50 PM
Quote from: T-Rok on January 30, 2012, 12:37:34 PM
One says big bang, other says no. How about I jump in here with what I learned growing up as a Latter Day Saint, more commonly known as Mormon, God created the big bang. Argue over that for awhile, I'm enjoying reading all this.
Do you think it's possible if not most likely that the big bang wasn't created by a God? I don't really see any evidence to support this theory.
Anything is possible. Hell, you could believe a flying spaghetti monster created everything for all I care. Plus, I also don't see any evidence to deny this either, do you?
Well then it's final. A flying spaghetti monster created everything. Glad we all agree.
Right, so why is the focus of the debate on whether or not a God created the big bang? Why does this theory deserve more recognition than any of the other infinite (quite literally infinite) number of possibilities? Doesn't seem worth considering to me.
@Mystery: Pretty much, yeah. Much better to look for evidence of anything and work backwards from there. It would be incredibly bias to look for evidence of a God in the creation of the big bang just because it is a religiously convenient theory.
My favorite is when people tell me that I must think that I know everything because I'm an atheist. My answer to them is that I am actually an atheist because I know close to nothing about our universe and how it was created.
Another thing to consider with our knowledge of the universe is the sheer scale of things.
Human life is infinitely minuscule in every dimension. We've only been alive for a couple thousand years, which when compared to the billions years the earth has existed is nothing! We've barely made a dent on the history of our own planet, which when compared with our universe is infinitely more minuscule. By the time humans are extinct, our impact on the universe will have been next to nothing. In fact, our whole solar system is almost irrelevant on the scale of the entire universe.
To truly believe that we are the center of some intelligent design is to reject everything we know about the universe. Each of us is a biological organism with basic survival functions, the same as any other animal on this tiny planet, in this tiny solar system, in this tiny galaxy.
Quote from: Torch on January 30, 2012, 10:19:40 PM
To truly believe that we are the center of some intelligent design is to reject everything we know about the universe. Each of us is a biological organism with basic survival functions, the same as any other animal on this tiny planet, in this tiny solar system, in this tiny galaxy.
We're contemplating the reason for existence. Don't downplay our awesomeness. Not to mention we, as living organisms, have qualitative phenomenal experiences that can't be measured.
For example (I stole these off wikipedia, bite me). Here's a few philosophical questions that the Hard problem of consciousness (http://"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_problem_of_consciousness") asks (swearing added for dramatic effect):
"Why the hell should physical processing give rise to any inner life at all?"
"How the hell is it that some organisms are subjects of experience?"
"Why the hell does awareness of sensory information exist at all?"
"Why the hell do qualia exist?"
"Why the hell is there a subjective component to experience?"
"Why the hell aren't we philosophical zombies?"
"the hell, man?"
(http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9793/philosophicalzombie.jpg)
The first question sums it up the best. There's no reason for us to be self-aware. We should reasonably be philosophical zombies, aka beings that can move, talk, and act normal, but don't actually possess self-awareness, just very good AI that makes us seem self-aware. In fact, I cannot prove that everyone in this world is not a philosophical zombie, or that anyone experiences consciousness or subjective experiences other than myself. According to physicalism, facts determine all other facts, and everything is physical, including consciousness. If physicalism is true, it means that we can logically perceive a world that is identical to our own, yet contains p-zombies rather than conscious beings. Since it is possible to imagine conflicting worlds that are physically the same, David Chalmers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Chalmers") holds that physicalism is actually false, and there is a metaphysical aspect to the universe.
Either way, I think the idea that something is playing the strings is a possibility (please, here me out). Until we can prove that there are unlimited universes out there with unlimited variables of laws, it stands to reason that the likelihood of complex organisms being formed is infinitesimally small.
Imagine a desert that takes up a world the size of the sun. Now imagine getting one chance to find a specific speck of sand located anywhere on this desert planet. Imagine even further finding the correct speck of sand once per day for a billion years, by sheer chance. The only explanation for this even being remotely possible is if there are infinite amounts of people on this desert planet with the same chance at finding the right speck of dirt for a billion years. The problem is, just because we accept the possibility that infinite amounts of invisible people are trying to do the same thing, making a winner inevitable, doesn't mean we are less surprised when we find out
we're the winner. We are now forced to conclude one of two things: Either there are infinite amounts of invisible people on this planet trying to find the speck of sand and we were the lucky one that betrayed all odds,
or the system was rigged from the start. Both options seem unlikely if not impossible, yet we deduct that one has to be true. Which do you pick? My thoughts are that the game might just be rigged. By what or who, you ask? I have no effing idea. You may argue that this is pushing the question of life back further, by asking who is rigging the game rigger, and I say it's turtles all the way down
(teehee I hope somebody gets my reference).
So you think god created evolution, or god created the big bang?
But the big bang theory states that the big bang lead to the creation of earth, whereas the bible says God created it himself.
The bible includes god created things out of nothing. Don't ever try to mix religion and science when religious texts break the very fundamental laws of science. You cannot create things out of nothing, saying "let there be light" will not create light. And if god created evolution I would expect he would do a better job of it.
Really, nipples on males? One tube for food and air? Can't bend our knees backwards? Not directly burning fat for energy? Blindspot in my vision? My spine can't repair itself?
This does not point to intelligent design really...
Quote from: Yankyal on January 31, 2012, 12:18:16 AM
So you think god created evolution, or god created the big bang?
But the big bang theory states that the big bang lead to the creation of earth, whereas the bible says God created it himself.
The bible includes god created things out of nothing. Don't ever try to mix religion and science when religious texts break the very fundamental laws of science. You cannot create things out of nothing, saying "let there be light" will not create light. And if god created evolution I would expect he would do a better job of it.
Really, nipples on males? One tube for food and air? Can't bend our knees backwards? Not directly burning fat for energy? Blindspot in my vision? My spine can't repair itself?
This does not point to intelligent design really...
Are you talking to me? No, I don't believe in the idea of God, or at least what it's come to be, nor do I believe in any religion. If you had to label me, I'd be an atheist with touch of deism. I simply accept the possibility of their being an intelligent creator of the universe and it's laws, whether it be an advanced alien race, or something else. I make no assertions as to whether or not it knows or cares about our existence, nor do I think it is entirely likely.
Quote from: Yankyal on January 31, 2012, 12:18:16 AM
nipples on males
I don't know about you, but I make good use of mine...
Quote from: Yankyal on January 31, 2012, 12:18:16 AM
The bible includes god created things out of nothing. Don't ever try to mix religion and science when religious texts break the very fundamental laws of science. You cannot create things out of nothing, saying "let there be light" will not create light. And if god created evolution I would expect he would do a better job of it.
This is half true, quantum mechanics says things can be created out of nothing but indeed there is not someone that could say "let there be light" and then there is light (instead of saying let there be light we use light switches).
The argument that god could do better is kinda weird, because why would he? Also why would anything else be better? Why would a world where people instantly be evolved to what we think is "better" be "better" for god?
Now for my point of view on religion:
To keep it simple, i think religion has been created (by human, not by god) to explain things that couldn't be explained and i think it evolved to what it is today. I think the point of believing today shouldn't be to explain things anymore, it should be to believe in something, to give hope and to let people live a better life. Because of this i think the whole argueing between Science vs Religion is kinda silly, the problem is that religion and science explain things both differently. Again i dont think religion should focus on explaining things that can be explained by science but instead they should focus on the things i said.
Now for the existance of a god (or other things):
I do think god can exist. The question is, what is god? And i think there isn't a right answer for this since the question is useless. God is something you believe in or not. The god that exists doesn't need to be real, it just is what you think it is. You could even say that the chance of particles being or appearing somewhere (again quantum mechanics) is god. In that case you just have a different view and use different words for the same thing yet you are not explaining how it haphened.
To summerize all this: I think religion is something you believe in, not something you use to explain things.
And last, i think everyone should be able to belief in whatever they want as long as they dont hurt or affect others in a bad way (like said in this topic before with gay marriage).
Quote from: Jake on January 30, 2012, 11:56:49 PM
Imagine a desert that takes up a world the size of the sun. Now imagine getting one chance to find a specific speck of sand located anywhere on this desert planet. Imagine even further finding the correct speck of sand once per day for a billion years, by sheer chance. The only explanation for this even being remotely possible is if there are infinite amounts of people on this desert planet with the same chance at finding the right speck of dirt for a billion years. The problem is, just because we accept the possibility that infinite amounts of invisible people are trying to do the same thing, making a winner inevitable, doesn't mean we are less surprised when we find out we're the winner. We are now forced to conclude one of two things: Either there are infinite amounts of invisible people on this planet trying to find the speck of sand and we were the lucky one that betrayed all odds, or the system was rigged from the start. Both options seem unlikely if not impossible, yet we deduct that one has to be true. Which do you pick? My thoughts are that the game might just be rigged. By what or who, you ask? I have no effing idea. You may argue that this is pushing the question of life back further, by asking who is rigging the game rigger, and I say it's turtles all the way down (teehee I hope somebody gets my reference).
Not only is it possible for us to be the lucky ones, we have to be the lucky ones. If we weren't we couldn't have this conversation right now. Imagine all the millions of different genetic possibilities that were factored into your birth. The chance that you became that exact recipe of DNA is minuscule. But it's irrelevant because it's not about the chance of something specific occurring, it's about the number of different possibilities there were.
There's nothing significant about earth or our species that makes it any more coincidental than if consciousness occurred in another species on one of the other (again, infinite number of) planets. I'd say it's probably a combinations of overdeveloped brains and the ability to walk on two feet that allows us to think consciously.
To clarify the above, walking on two feet lets us use something like 90% less blood to move around than other animals like apes, allowing us to devote a very considerable amount more blood to our brains. This lets us think while moving, we're pretty much the only species that can do it. Imagine trying to think while swimming front crawl all the time, it's very VERY difficult.
That's just an educated guess though, I'm no cognitive scientist and obviously I don't understand consciousness any more than anyone else. Just seems like with all the planets in the universe, consciousness of some sort was pretty much guaranteed to occur in a few species. We could just as easily be having the same conversation on another planet, in another time, in a different sense, as a different species and the same logic would still apply.
I myself am a Christian and I strongly believe in it. I believe in evolution on some level, to what measure I don't know, but going off of how bacteria changes, it has to. I believe the world is MUCH older than 6,000 years, and I don't see it in the bible directly saying that anywhere. I believe something like the big bang happened by God, but I don't have time to go deeply into it now. Seeing that in scientfic theory, matter can be made out of energy, and light is made of energy, that is why God said let there be light, and there was. I believe everything else was in a way, made out of light. I had very little time to write this up, so I'll expand on it later when I can.
Quote from: Torch on January 31, 2012, 10:01:20 AM
Quote from: Jake on January 30, 2012, 11:56:49 PM
Imagine a desert that takes up a world the size of the sun. Now imagine getting one chance to find a specific speck of sand located anywhere on this desert planet. Imagine even further finding the correct speck of sand once per day for a billion years, by sheer chance. The only explanation for this even being remotely possible is if there are infinite amounts of people on this desert planet with the same chance at finding the right speck of dirt for a billion years. The problem is, just because we accept the possibility that infinite amounts of invisible people are trying to do the same thing, making a winner inevitable, doesn't mean we are less surprised when we find out we're the winner. We are now forced to conclude one of two things: Either there are infinite amounts of invisible people on this planet trying to find the speck of sand and we were the lucky one that betrayed all odds, or the system was rigged from the start. Both options seem unlikely if not impossible, yet we deduct that one has to be true. Which do you pick? My thoughts are that the game might just be rigged. By what or who, you ask? I have no effing idea. You may argue that this is pushing the question of life back further, by asking who is rigging the game rigger, and I say it's turtles all the way down (teehee I hope somebody gets my reference).
Not only is it possible for us to be the lucky ones, we have to be the lucky ones. If we weren't we couldn't have this conversation right now. Imagine all the millions of different genetic possibilities that were factored into your birth. The chance that you became that exact recipe of DNA is minuscule. But it's irrelevant because it's not about the chance of something specific occurring, it's about the number of different possibilities there were.
It actually is about something specific occurring. A universe being created that can support life isn't a statistical probability, it's an anomaly. It's not like our universe had infinite chances to get it right. as far as we're aware, it had one shot and it made it count. There are two explanations at this point (that I've read about anyway): Infinite universes with infinite combinations of laws and we're one of the universes that didn't implode back in on itself, or the universe was rigged to have those laws. I choose to believe that both explanations are now equally valid based on the knowledge we have of the universe. When and if we find out that there are infinite universes out there (currently being worked on as we speak), I will be more inclined to believe we are the product of chance. If I find out that we're the only universe in existence, which more or less probably cannot be proven, then I will lean towards believing the universes laws were tuned in some way.
QuoteThere's nothing significant about earth or our species that makes it any more coincidental than if consciousness occurred in another species on one of the other (again, infinite number of) planets. I'd say it's probably a combinations of overdeveloped brains and the ability to walk on two feet that allows us to think consciously.
To clarify the above, walking on two feet lets us use something like 90% less blood to move around than other animals like apes, allowing us to devote a very considerable amount more blood to our brains. This lets us think while moving, we're pretty much the only species that can do it. Imagine trying to think while swimming front crawl all the time, it's very VERY difficult.
That's just an educated guess though, I'm no cognitive scientist and obviously I don't understand consciousness any more than anyone else. Just seems like with all the planets in the universe, consciousness of some sort was pretty much guaranteed to occur in a few species. We could just as easily be having the same conversation on another planet, in another time, in a different sense, as a different species and the same logic would still apply.
The one thing I don't agree with here is that consciousness was guaranteed to happen in our universe simply because it's so massive and has so many planets. There's a very real possibility that there are gazillions of other lonely universes out there with empty planets and absolutely no complex life because the laws of that universe won't allow for complex things like abiogenesis to even start.
Quote from: Jake on January 31, 2012, 12:15:00 PM
Quote from: Torch on January 31, 2012, 10:01:20 AM
Quote from: Jake on January 30, 2012, 11:56:49 PM
Imagine a desert that takes up a world the size of the sun. Now imagine getting one chance to find a specific speck of sand located anywhere on this desert planet. Imagine even further finding the correct speck of sand once per day for a billion years, by sheer chance. The only explanation for this even being remotely possible is if there are infinite amounts of people on this desert planet with the same chance at finding the right speck of dirt for a billion years. The problem is, just because we accept the possibility that infinite amounts of invisible people are trying to do the same thing, making a winner inevitable, doesn't mean we are less surprised when we find out we're the winner. We are now forced to conclude one of two things: Either there are infinite amounts of invisible people on this planet trying to find the speck of sand and we were the lucky one that betrayed all odds, or the system was rigged from the start. Both options seem unlikely if not impossible, yet we deduct that one has to be true. Which do you pick? My thoughts are that the game might just be rigged. By what or who, you ask? I have no effing idea. You may argue that this is pushing the question of life back further, by asking who is rigging the game rigger, and I say it's turtles all the way down (teehee I hope somebody gets my reference).
Not only is it possible for us to be the lucky ones, we have to be the lucky ones. If we weren't we couldn't have this conversation right now. Imagine all the millions of different genetic possibilities that were factored into your birth. The chance that you became that exact recipe of DNA is minuscule. But it's irrelevant because it's not about the chance of something specific occurring, it's about the number of different possibilities there were.
It actually is about something specific occurring. A universe being created that can support life isn't a statistical probability, it's an anomaly. It's not like our universe had infinite chances to get it right. as far as we're aware, it had one shot and it made it count. There are two explanations at this point (that I've read about anyway): Infinite universes with infinite combinations of laws and we're one of the universes that didn't implode back in on itself, or the universe was rigged to have those laws. I choose to believe that both explanations are now equally valid based on the knowledge we have of the universe. When and if we find out that there are infinite universes out there (currently being worked on as we speak), I will be more inclined to believe we are the product of chance. If I find out that we're the only universe in existence, which more or less probably cannot be proven, then I will lean towards believing the universes laws were tuned in some way.
That's a neat way to look at things, considering that the fundamental laws of our universe were intelligent design.
I still go back to my original argument though, our universe is one specific instance in the infinite number of potential universes. It is no more amazing or coincidental than if our universe was created with 20 dimensions and no length/width/depth/time, and somehow a 20dimensional existence was formed capable of questioning its own existence. What is so special about our universes laws that separates it from the other infinite number of possibilities, nearly all of which we can't even begin to imagine.
Thinking about universe possibilities is a philosophical nightmare.
Quote from: Torch on January 31, 2012, 01:59:42 PM
That's a neat way to look at things, considering that the fundamental laws of our universe were intelligent design.
I still go back to my original argument though, our universe is one specific instance in the infinite number of potential universes. It is no more amazing or coincidental than if our universe was created with 20 dimensions and no length/width/depth/time, and somehow a 20dimensional existence was formed capable of questioning its own existence. What is so special about our universes laws that separates it from the other infinite number of possibilities, nearly all of which we can't even begin to imagine.
Thinking about universe possibilities is a philosophical nightmare.
So how do we know there are other potential universes out there? Isn't that just a large assumption? What if the laws of our universe are the only laws that can exist? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm actually curious.
Quote from: Jake on January 31, 2012, 02:36:35 PM
Quote from: Torch on January 31, 2012, 01:59:42 PM
That's a neat way to look at things, considering that the fundamental laws of our universe were intelligent design.
I still go back to my original argument though, our universe is one specific instance in the infinite number of potential universes. It is no more amazing or coincidental than if our universe was created with 20 dimensions and no length/width/depth/time, and somehow a 20dimensional existence was formed capable of questioning its own existence. What is so special about our universes laws that separates it from the other infinite number of possibilities, nearly all of which we can't even begin to imagine.
Thinking about universe possibilities is a philosophical nightmare.
So how do we know there are other potential universes out there? Isn't that just a large assumption? What if the laws of our universe are the only laws that can exist? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm actually curious.
Well that's definitely possible. It's also possible that there are many more layers that we aren't even considering. Maybe our universe exists within a cluster of other universes. Maybe that cluster of universes exists within other clusters of universes. Maybe those clusters of clusters of universes exist within other clusters of clusters of universes. Astronomy is one big mind!@#$.
Everything Jake and Torch have said so far might as well be my thoughts straight out of my head.
Quote from: Torch on January 31, 2012, 03:48:31 PM
Well that's definitely possible. It's also possible that there are many more layers that we aren't even considering. Maybe our universe exists within a cluster of other universes. Maybe that cluster of universes exists within other clusters of universes. Maybe those clusters of clusters of universes exist within other clusters of clusters of universes. Astronomy is one big mind!@#$.
That's the thing, there are quite literally an infinite number of ways it could actually be set up. Maybe combinations of several. There could be infinite universes at different times with different fabric than spacetime as a template. All we can really say is that chance-wise, it's extremely likely that our universe isn't the only thing in all of existence.
2 things I view as quite unfortunate for our universe is that (as far as we know) light speed is the maximum speed at which anything in our spacetime fabric can travel(and even getting close to it with anything would be astronomically difficult, if not impossible), and that it's also extremely likely given the current expansion of the universe increasing exponentially that the entire thing will be altered in a way as to effectively 'ruin' everything inside it for what would be either almost an infinite amount of time, a very long time, or forever.
Quote from: Jake on January 31, 2012, 02:36:35 PM
Quote from: Torch on January 31, 2012, 01:59:42 PM
That's a neat way to look at things, considering that the fundamental laws of our universe were intelligent design.
I still go back to my original argument though, our universe is one specific instance in the infinite number of potential universes. It is no more amazing or coincidental than if our universe was created with 20 dimensions and no length/width/depth/time, and somehow a 20dimensional existence was formed capable of questioning its own existence. What is so special about our universes laws that separates it from the other infinite number of possibilities, nearly all of which we can't even begin to imagine.
Thinking about universe possibilities is a philosophical nightmare.
So how do we know there are other potential universes out there? Isn't that just a large assumption? What if the laws of our universe are the only laws that can exist? I'm not trying to be condescending, I'm actually curious.
The reason why logic holds up so well here is...because, well, it just does. In other areas of existence, on the assumption that is more to existence than just us, I'm positive everything could be so strange as to have an infinite number of possible rules and laws, even mind-bending ones. Another form of 'logic' could then apply there, or even possibly just blatantly things NOT FOLLOWING rules. But again, even though that's possible, it's
always best to assume everything just works how it has so far without throwing in unfalsifiable, unprovable concepts like that.
The best possible analogy for existence as a whole that I can come up with is a point on a number line representing our universe. The line itself, however, is one that's essentially infinitesimally inherently complex(all the thing that can be done with numbers), has an infinite possible number of dimensions(it can become 3D, 4D, etc.) and has the potential to go on forever in every direction(the nature of lines).
I find that incredibly awesome.
Quote from: Foly on January 31, 2012, 05:44:31 AM
Quote from: Yankyal on January 31, 2012, 12:18:16 AM
The bible includes god created things out of nothing. Don't ever try to mix religion and science when religious texts break the very fundamental laws of science. You cannot create things out of nothing, saying "let there be light" will not create light. And if god created evolution I would expect he would do a better job of it.
This is half true, quantum mechanics says things can be created out of nothing but indeed there is not someone that could say "let there be light" and then there is light (instead of saying let there be light we use light switches).
The argument that god could do better is kinda weird, because why would he? Also why would anything else be better? Why would a world where people instantly be evolved to what we think is "better" be "better" for god?
Now for my point of view on religion:
To keep it simple, i think religion has been created (by human, not by god) to explain things that couldn't be explained and i think it evolved to what it is today. I think the point of believing today shouldn't be to explain things anymore, it should be to believe in something, to give hope and to let people live a better life. Because of this i think the whole argueing between Science vs Religion is kinda silly, the problem is that religion and science explain things both differently. Again i dont think religion should focus on explaining things that can be explained by science but instead they should focus on the things i said.
Now for the existance of a god (or other things):
I do think god can exist. The question is, what is god? And i think there isn't a right answer for this since the question is useless. God is something you believe in or not. The god that exists doesn't need to be real, it just is what you think it is. You could even say that the chance of particles being or appearing somewhere (again quantum mechanics) is god. In that case you just have a different view and use different words for the same thing yet you are not explaining how it haphened.
To summerize all this: I think religion is something you believe in, not something you use to explain things.
And last, i think everyone should be able to belief in whatever they want as long as they dont hurt or affect others in a bad way (like said in this topic before with gay marriage).
God should create the most evolved things he can because he is a perfect being who "loves" us, and someone who loves their creations probably wouldn't !@#$ them up so bad.
Also I am fine with religion if it is kept private. That isn't the case. People can't just believe in god and keep it to themselves. They have to start wars, and try to persecute anyone different, or pressure children into believing with threats of eternal torture to create more idiots like themselves. I swear if for one generation NO ONE tried to indoctrinate their children, religion would be wiped out entirely.
Again I don't go around hating religious people. I think religion itself is pretty stupid but religious people have their reasons and if they really aren't hurting anyone I see no reason to try and change their beliefs. Unfortunately this is usually not the case, like you said.
Quote from: Jake on January 31, 2012, 12:32:57 AM
Are you talking to me? No, I don't believe in the idea of God, or at least what it's come to be, nor do I believe in any religion. If you had to label me, I'd be an atheist with touch of deism. I simply accept the possibility of their being an intelligent creator of the universe and it's laws, whether it be an advanced alien race, or something else. I make no assertions as to whether or not it knows or cares about our existence, nor do I think it is entirely likely.
You are an agnostic atheist. As am I.
Quote from: Torch on January 31, 2012, 01:59:42 PM
That's a neat way to look at things, considering that the fundamental laws of our universe were intelligent design.
Can you elaborate? Intelligent requires sentience, and I have never read or heard of a law pointing to a sentient creator.
Quote from: Jake on January 31, 2012, 12:32:57 AM
No, I don't believe in the idea of God, or at least what it's come to be, nor do I believe in any religion. If you had to label me, I'd be an atheist with touch of deism. I simply accept the possibility of their being an intelligent creator of the universe and it's laws, whether it be an advanced alien race, or something else. I make no assertions as to whether or not it knows or cares about our existence, nor do I think it is entirely likely.
They got a word for that. Agnosticism.
Well I beleive in God, Jesus, dinosaurs, and aliens. I do not attend church, nor do I pray, nor do I preach to the students at my school. I personally beleive that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam is all correct. They beleive in God, so why should they be punished by God? (ie: go to hell)
But God (imo) created dinosaurs a hell of a lot before 8000BC.
But I am confused at what you guys are trying to accomplish with this thread. Are you attempting to convert people to/away from religion?
Quote from: Yankyal on January 31, 2012, 05:12:39 PM
Quote from: Torch on January 31, 2012, 01:59:42 PM
That's a neat way to look at things, considering that the fundamental laws of our universe were intelligent design.
Can you elaborate? Intelligent requires sentience, and I have never read or heard of a law pointing to a sentient creator.
You're misreading my post. I think it's neat that Jake was considering the possibility that the fundamental laws of our universe were intelligent design.
@crozier: What's the point of any thread? It's interesting discussion, that's what forums are for!
Quote from: crozier on January 31, 2012, 05:22:20 PM
Quote from: Jake on January 31, 2012, 12:32:57 AM
No, I don't believe in the idea of God, or at least what it's come to be, nor do I believe in any religion. If you had to label me, I'd be an atheist with touch of deism. I simply accept the possibility of their being an intelligent creator of the universe and it's laws, whether it be an advanced alien race, or something else. I make no assertions as to whether or not it knows or cares about our existence, nor do I think it is entirely likely.
They got a word for that. Agnosticism.
I believe in the possibility(which chance-wise, again, might as well be 0)of any kind of deity. All atheists do, except for gnostic atheists, who think that it is impossible, PERIOD, for them to exist. Most people don't apply the term properly. Here's a chart:
(http://www.metaphysics-for-life.com/images/agnostic_chartMFL.gif)
I would be just under gnostic.
Quote from: crozier on January 31, 2012, 05:22:20 PM
But I am confused at what you guys are trying to accomplish with this thread. Are you attempting to convert people to/away from religion?
Hopefully helping people come to better conclusions about their beliefs. If it causes people to convert away from religion, that is always a good thing.
Quote from: Jake on January 31, 2012, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: crozier on January 31, 2012, 05:22:20 PM
But I am confused at what you guys are trying to accomplish with this thread. Are you attempting to convert people to/away from religion?
If it causes people to convert away from religion, that is always a good thing.
I in every way disagree with this statement.
Religion gives hope, improoves one's ethical desisions, teaches you positive ideals, and the like.
Quote from: crozier on January 31, 2012, 10:06:08 PM
Quote from: Jake on January 31, 2012, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: crozier on January 31, 2012, 05:22:20 PM
But I am confused at what you guys are trying to accomplish with this thread. Are you attempting to convert people to/away from religion?
If it causes people to convert away from religion, that is always a good thing.
I in every way disagree with this statement.
Religion gives hope, improoves one's ethical desisions, teaches you positive ideals, and the like.
Here is some religion improving ethical decisions:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Judges 5:30 - They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.
Zechariah 14:1-2 - Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.
Leviticus 20:10 - If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 - But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.
1Samuel 6:19-20 - From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.
Exodus 21:20-21 - When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.
9/11 - Religion
Christian Dark Ages - Religion
Crusades - Religion
Witch Burning - Religion
Prosecution against homosexuals - Religion
Inquisition - Religion
Jihad - Religion
Also the point of this thread is to discuss the moral implications of religion and whether or not it is beneficial to humans. These are just from the bible, by the way. I have more from the Book of Mormon, Quran, etc. and so far I have decided that it is very detrimental to society.
I want to hear arguments from the opposition.
EDIT: I don't know what kind of hope you get from knowing there is a god sending people to hell to be tortured forever if you do not believe in him. Or that there is a god standing by while children starve to death and millions are dying in wars waged. The ethical side of religion is...shown above. Positive ideals can be created without religion(such as freedom of belief, equality, not murdering someone if they disagree).
Quote from: crozier on January 31, 2012, 10:06:08 PM
Quote from: Jake on January 31, 2012, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: crozier on January 31, 2012, 05:22:20 PM
But I am confused at what you guys are trying to accomplish with this thread. Are you attempting to convert people to/away from religion?
If it causes people to convert away from religion, that is always a good thing.
I in every way disagree with this statement.
Religion gives hope, improoves one's ethical desisions, teaches you positive ideals, and the like.
To be fair, I'm not as anti-religion as Yankyal. For many, it's a glimmer of hope in a sad world. Not everyone can cope with death, and some people need religion to get through the day. On the other hand, if you use religion to justify killing people, oppressing people, or to support your bigotry, then screw you. The fundamental problem with religion is that it uses something called faith. Faith literally means "lack of evidence". Any teaching that prides itself on having people believe in it without questioning it has serious issues. Children are literally brainwashed by their parents into believing things that make absolutely no logical sense and then are taught that science is dangerous, that evolution doesn't occur, and gay people are just sinful creatures controlled by the devil.
Here's the best quote that sums up my feelings on it.
"If religion were true, it's followers would not try to bludgeon their young into an artificial conformity; but would merely insist on their unbending quest for truth, irrespective of artificial backgrounds or practical consequences. With such an honest and inflexible openness to evidence, they could not fail to receive any real truth which might be manifesting itself around them. The fact that religionists do not follow this honorable course, but cheat at the game by invoking juvenile quasi-hypnosis, is enough to destroy their pretensions in my eyes even if their absurdity were not manifest in every other direction."
Ok Yank, you got me. Thats all some pretty horrible stuff.
But the cause of a majority of them is due to corrupt leaders and fear of change. Corrupt leaders can be found anywhere. And lets say atheism came before religion, they would like call the ones who beleived in a diety "heretics." I bet you they would be the ones who fear change.
Quote from: Yankyal on January 31, 2012, 10:23:01 PM
The ethical side of religion is...shown above. Positive ideals can be created without religion(such as freedom of belief, equality, not murdering someone if they disagree).
What you said here is very hypocritical. Why don't you just let it go, and let me beleive what I want to beleive? And I dont think atheists made that princible.
I agree with your thoughts on equality and not killing people. I don't think anyone should die for beleiving something different then me. I dont judge.
And Jake, I have not found religion because my parents shoved it down my throat. My family nor I attend church or read any sort of bible or holy texts. They in no way pushed me into what I beleive. We are also quite tolerant to homosextuals (my great uncle was gay), I beleive in the theory of natural selection (hey it makes sense..), and I have an A- in my biology class. Science makes sense, and from the people I know, they have no rebuttal to the thingd they are learning.
I just find it silly that as soon as people find out God doesn't fit the definition that they made for Him, they just call it quits. (Same for the people who go "I kept asking for an answer, never got one! Must not exist!")
"Oh, God isn't as great as I thought he was? Then he mustn't exist and I don't believe in him!"
Not arguing which way I believe, but I always found that kind of reasoning to just be ludicrous. If anything, I think there is a God who is a dick.
Quote from: Yankyal on January 31, 2012, 10:23:01 PM
Quote from: crozier on January 31, 2012, 10:06:08 PM
Quote from: Jake on January 31, 2012, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: crozier on January 31, 2012, 05:22:20 PM
But I am confused at what you guys are trying to accomplish with this thread. Are you attempting to convert people to/away from religion?
If it causes people to convert away from religion, that is always a good thing.
I in every way disagree with this statement.
Religion gives hope, improoves one's ethical desisions, teaches you positive ideals, and the like.
Here is some religion improving ethical decisions:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Judges 5:30 - They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.
Zechariah 14:1-2 - Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.
Leviticus 20:10 - If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 - But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.
1Samuel 6:19-20 - From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.
Exodus 21:20-21 - When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.
Not one for debating on religon, but these are terrible points.
Crozier is talking about the current time I would assume, and no one follows the bible that riduclously now. Or if they do they a very small group of people that everyone hates with a burning passion.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 01, 2012, 08:03:51 PM
(Same for the people who go "I kept asking for an answer, never got one! Must not exist!")
I don't see why asking for any form of evidence whatsoever from a god (not necessarily omnipotent, but he usually should still be powerful enough to at least do divine intervention/miracles) and upon receiving none, assuming it doesn't exist is silly.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 01, 2012, 08:03:51 PM
If anything, I think there is a God who is a dick.
If this universe does have a god, !@#$ him to hell and back ten times over.
Especially if it's anything like the Christian/Islamic/Jewish god.
Dick isn't even the tip of the iceberg in that situation.
Quote from: Titan on February 01, 2012, 08:04:46 PM
Not one for debating on religon, but these are terrible points.
Crozier is talking about the current time I would assume, and no one follows the bible that riduclously now. Or if they do they a very small group of people that everyone hates with a burning passion.
His point is that quite literally everyone cherry-picks from the Bible, because it would be impossible to follow all of it in today's society, and many are just plain ignored. (I am aware of the argument that Jesus' death got rid of the ritual rules and that's why no one follows them, though that doesn't explain why God set them up in the first place.) Yet many still tote it as the end-all be-all, and still others view it as the best book in the history of world.
Honestly, when I read that book for my first time as a kid, I cried nonstop upon seeing all the horrors in it, to speak nothing of the numerous contradictions and things that just don't make sense. It scarred me.
To this day I still don't understand how anyone who has read it thoroughly can think it's a good book. I accept that people do somehow, but I'd REALLY like to know how they deal with it.
Quote from: Mystery on February 01, 2012, 08:21:32 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 01, 2012, 08:03:51 PM
(Same for the people who go "I kept asking for an answer, never got one! Must not exist!")
I don't see why asking for any form of evidence whatsoever from a god (not necessarily omnipotent, but he usually should still be powerful enough to at least do divine intervention/miracles) and upon receiving none, assuming it doesn't exist is silly.
I'm speaking more about a person who believes in God, then when they don't get a personal answer, they stop believing. I mean, its fair - but from a logical standpoint, you're not really disproving his existence. There could be any number of reasons for a Godlike figure to refuse/fail to respond. Once again, because he doesn't fit your personal thoughts, he suddenly doesn't exist. I just find that silly.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 01, 2012, 08:43:53 PM
I'm speaking more about a person who believes in God, then when they don't get a personal answer, they stop believing. I mean, its fair - but from a logical standpoint, you're not really disproving his existence. There could be any number of reasons for a Godlike figure to refuse/fail to respond. Once again, because he doesn't fit your personal thoughts, he suddenly doesn't exist. I just find that silly.
You aren't disproving his existence because it's impossible to disprove. Anyone can always go 'you can never find him, you have to believe' or 'nothing can ever sense him' when defending the existence of a god. By the same token, it is also
impossible to prove since the concept of him requires so much blind faith and many other situations (again, some hallucinations and delusions on steroids) can explain every possible situation that would arise involving a god(if the laws of physics were to be broken and 'turned on' again, for example.
Anyway, you could apply that situation to literally anything. (The Pink Invisible Unicorn doesn't respond? But you can't assume it doesn't exist! etc.) Thinking about it that way isn't helpful.
Quote from: Titan on February 01, 2012, 08:04:46 PM
Quote from: Yankyal on January 31, 2012, 10:23:01 PM
Quote from: crozier on January 31, 2012, 10:06:08 PM
Quote from: Jake on January 31, 2012, 09:21:52 PM
Quote from: crozier on January 31, 2012, 05:22:20 PM
But I am confused at what you guys are trying to accomplish with this thread. Are you attempting to convert people to/away from religion?
If it causes people to convert away from religion, that is always a good thing.
I in every way disagree with this statement.
Religion gives hope, improoves one's ethical desisions, teaches you positive ideals, and the like.
Here is some religion improving ethical decisions:
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 - If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
Judges 5:30 - They must be dividing the spoils they took: there must be a damsel or two for each man, Spoils of dyed cloth as Sisera's spoil, an ornate shawl or two for me in the spoil.
Zechariah 14:1-2 - Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.
Leviticus 20:10 - If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the man and the woman must be put to death.
Deuteronomy 22:20-21 - But if this charge is true (that she wasn't a virgin on her wedding night), and evidence of the girls virginity is not found, they shall bring the girl to the entrance of her fathers house and there her townsman shall stone her to death, because she committed a crime against Israel by her unchasteness in her father's house. Thus shall you purge the evil from your midst.
1Samuel 6:19-20 - From there Elisha went up to Bethel. While he was on his way, some small boys came out of the city and jeered at him. "Go up baldhead," they shouted, "go up baldhead!" The prophet turned and saw them, and he cursed them in the name of the Lord. Then two shebears came out of the woods and tore forty two of the children to pieces.
Exodus 21:20-21 - When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.
Not one for debating on religon, but these are terrible points.
Crozier is talking about the current time I would assume, and no one follows the bible that riduclously now. Or if they do they a very small group of people that everyone hates with a burning passion.
And more specifically, all those verses come from the Old Testament, and when Jesus came around he pretty much taught "Yeah, Moses was pretty awesome with his transformer walking stick and all, but those laws are kind of primitive. Just don't be a total ass and you'll probably be fine."
Yet people still can't follow the rules to save their lives.
Quote from: Titan on February 01, 2012, 08:04:46 PM
Not one for debating on religon, but these are terrible points.
Crozier is talking about the current time I would assume, and no one follows the bible that riduclously now. Or if they do they a very small group of people that everyone hates with a burning passion.
-Gay marriage is still illegal in some states
-Atheists, homosexuals, and other people who deviate from the religious path are still persecuted in other countries
-So many parents are disowning their children if they are atheist or gay that there are actually shelters specifically for these children
-Stem cell research being halted and losing funding because of religion
-laws oppressing women in islamic states on religion
-9/11 was only 10 years ago and that's probably the biggest example
And the point was that religion does not always promote positive ideals. There are many better ways to develop your morality than with religion.
Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 01, 2012, 09:51:17 PM
Just don't be a total ass and you'll probably be fine."
Plenty of people who aren't asses are going to hell. It's not don't be a total ass, it's follow and worship me and nothing else or I will torture you forever.
Quote from: Mystery on February 01, 2012, 09:17:46 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 01, 2012, 08:43:53 PM
I'm speaking more about a person who believes in God, then when they don't get a personal answer, they stop believing. I mean, its fair - but from a logical standpoint, you're not really disproving his existence. There could be any number of reasons for a Godlike figure to refuse/fail to respond. Once again, because he doesn't fit your personal thoughts, he suddenly doesn't exist. I just find that silly.
You aren't disproving his existence because it's impossible to disprove. Anyone can always go 'you can never find him, you have to believe' or 'nothing can ever sense him' when defending the existence of a god. By the same token, it is also impossible to prove since the concept of him requires so much blind faith and many other situations (again, some hallucinations and delusions on steroids) can explain every possible situation that would arise involving a god(if the laws of physics were to be broken and 'turned on' again, for example.
Anyway, you could apply that situation to literally anything. (The Pink Invisible Unicorn doesn't respond? But you can't assume it doesn't exist! etc.) Thinking about it that way isn't helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
I understand that. It is impossible to disprove God's existence entirely - none the less though, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, either.
My point, however, is that there are stronger reasons to have a lack of faith in God. I'm mocking the selfish nature of people who suddenly stop believing because God is no longer the perfect being for them. To me, that isn't logical reasoning. Though, like I already said, its fine - if you stop believing for reasons as topical as those, then more power to you. I personally just find the reasoning to be more selfish than not.
I've been reading this thread so far, and a question was itching in my head at school today: if God exists, and he created man, why did he give man the ability to not believe in Him? Was it because of Jesus's death? I have not read anything of the Bible so I am sorry if the answer was obvious.
Quote from: Yankyal on February 01, 2012, 09:58:36 PM
-9/11 was only 10 years ago and that's probably the biggest example
9/11 wasn't religious, it was just a big !@#$ you to America. America has made a pretty big mess of Arab countries over the years, this was a terrorist response to that.
Not arguing any of the other points though, especially stem cell research. I'm amazed that doesn't have more support.
Quote from: Torch on February 01, 2012, 10:46:12 PM
Quote from: Yankyal on February 01, 2012, 09:58:36 PM
-9/11 was only 10 years ago and that's probably the biggest example
9/11 wasn't religious, it was just a big !@#$ you to America. America has made a pretty big mess of Arab countries over the years, this was a terrorist response to that.
Not arguing any of the other points though, especially stem cell research. I'm amazed that doesn't have more support.
Perhaps Osama's intentions were not based on religion, but I think he used religion(holy war against US) to convince the hijackers to throw away their lives.
Quote from: Yankyal on February 02, 2012, 12:30:27 AM
Quote from: Torch on February 01, 2012, 10:46:12 PM
Quote from: Yankyal on February 01, 2012, 09:58:36 PM
-9/11 was only 10 years ago and that's probably the biggest example
9/11 wasn't religious, it was just a big !@#$ you to America. America has made a pretty big mess of Arab countries over the years, this was a terrorist response to that.
Not arguing any of the other points though, especially stem cell research. I'm amazed that doesn't have more support.
Perhaps Osama's intentions were not based on religion, but I think he used religion(holy war against US) to convince the hijackers to throw away their lives.
Well it's unlikely Osama directly contacted any of the hijackers. Regardless, maybe they believed they would be rewarded for their sacrifice as part of their religion, but their motives were probably just getting back at America for screwing them over. Islam is totally misunderstood in the west, it definitely doesn't preach hating those of different faiths and neither do the followers of it.
Quote from: Torch on February 02, 2012, 12:53:44 AM
Islam is totally misunderstood in the west, it definitely doesn't preach hating those of different faiths and neither do the followers of it.
It depends on how anybody wants to interpret it. You can use Islam to justify slavery, oppression, and murder if you so choose. You can also use it to preach love and forgiveness. It's very similar to the bible in those regards.
Quote from: Yankyal on February 01, 2012, 09:58:36 PM
Plenty of people who aren't asses are going to hell. It's not don't be a total ass, it's follow and worship me and nothing else or I will torture you forever.
True to some extent. I believe the Catholic teaching is that if people don't believe in God due to "invincible ignorance" they're pretty much safe, whereas if they deliberately rebel against God like the Devil did they're gonna get God-slapped just like he was.
Quote from: RayRay on February 01, 2012, 10:15:54 PM
I've been reading this thread so far, and a question was itching in my head at school today: if God exists, and he created man, why did he give man the ability to not believe in Him? Was it because of Jesus's death? I have not read anything of the Bible so I am sorry if the answer was obvious.
This is kind of like what I mentioned above; the Bible says people were created by God to be like God (obviously not to the extent of demigods in many religions, but still pretty powerful) and therefore have free will; unlike God, however, people aren't totally unlimited, nor are they totally perfect. We're still perfectly capable of doing mostly good things, and I think I can say without sounding like some kind of nutcase who thinks he's a god that we're a lot more powerful than we give ourselves (or give God) credit for.
I'm not too much into religious beliefs nor am I entirely against any religion, but I've been reading through this topic and I didn't notice anyone bring up reincarnation. So my question is do you believe in it or not, and to what extent?
Another thing I'd like to point out. The bible has been translated from hundreds of languages, modified for kings own purposes, etc, etc. While it is believed the New King James edition is the least tampered with, it has still been tampered with for someones own needs.
Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 02, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
Quote from: Yankyal on February 01, 2012, 09:58:36 PM
Plenty of people who aren't asses are going to hell. It's not don't be a total ass, it's follow and worship me and nothing else or I will torture you forever.
True to some extent. I believe the Catholic teaching is that if people don't believe in God due to "invincible ignorance" they're pretty much safe, whereas if they deliberately rebel against God like the Devil did they're gonna get God-slapped just like he was.
The LDS are taught that nearly everyone goes to heaven. Essentially it's pretty much just murderers and people who have willingly gone to learn, learned all that they could, and then still flat out denied the existence of God that end up in eternal darkness. I am willing to explain more details about this is if you would like cause it's different then what you normally hear.
Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 02, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
Quote from: RayRay on February 01, 2012, 10:15:54 PM
I've been reading this thread so far, and a question was itching in my head at school today: if God exists, and he created man, why did he give man the ability to not believe in Him? Was it because of Jesus's death? I have not read anything of the Bible so I am sorry if the answer was obvious.
This is kind of like what I mentioned above; the Bible says people were created by God to be like God (obviously not to the extent of demigods in many religions, but still pretty powerful) and therefore have free will; unlike God, however, people aren't totally unlimited, nor are they totally perfect. We're still perfectly capable of doing mostly good things, and I think I can say without sounding like some kind of nutcase who thinks he's a god that we're a lot more powerful than we give ourselves (or give God) credit for.
Well for one, if we had not been given the ability to not believe in Him, we would not be able to believe in him. He would be forcing us to believe in him. Such is the path satan wanted to take.
Two things LDS are taught, one of which you would laugh at me for and one other religions claim heresy for. First, man is limited only by his/her own faith. If he/she truly believes that they can tell a mountain to move and that it will move when they do so, the mountain will move. Second, this one is more of a conundrum and is more just fun to say cause people get so mad. Everyone knows everything has always existed just in different forms of energy. Which means we have always existed, God has always existed. Mind you, in a lesser state of being. Just as we were created in Gods image, he too was created in his own Gods image and so on and so forth for eternity. So everything we do, he once had his own version of. We believe that if you truly live the extent of the gospel to the best of your ability, you will become your own God and be able to create your own world. This ties in to the earlier "more details" I was referring to.
Quote from: stick d00d on February 02, 2012, 10:15:57 AM
I'm not too much into religious beliefs nor am I entirely against any religion, but I've been reading through this topic and I didn't notice anyone bring up reincarnation. So my question is do you believe in it or not, and to what extent?
LDS belief is that you will be resurrected with a perfected body. Not on earth though. Because God is of flesh and spirit, we too have to be of flesh and spirit. Also, the very last person to be resurrected will be the Holy Ghost because he or she can not be of the flesh until everyone has died due to the task he or she has been given.
I think I have covered everything that piqued my interest. Now then, TOO THE JOB!
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 01, 2012, 10:07:11 PM
Quote from: Mystery on February 01, 2012, 09:17:46 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 01, 2012, 08:43:53 PM
I'm speaking more about a person who believes in God, then when they don't get a personal answer, they stop believing. I mean, its fair - but from a logical standpoint, you're not really disproving his existence. There could be any number of reasons for a Godlike figure to refuse/fail to respond. Once again, because he doesn't fit your personal thoughts, he suddenly doesn't exist. I just find that silly.
You aren't disproving his existence because it's impossible to disprove. Anyone can always go 'you can never find him, you have to believe' or 'nothing can ever sense him' when defending the existence of a god. By the same token, it is also impossible to prove since the concept of him requires so much blind faith and many other situations (again, some hallucinations and delusions on steroids) can explain every possible situation that would arise involving a god(if the laws of physics were to be broken and 'turned on' again, for example.
Anyway, you could apply that situation to literally anything. (The Pink Invisible Unicorn doesn't respond? But you can't assume it doesn't exist! etc.) Thinking about it that way isn't helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
I understand that. It is impossible to disprove God's existence entirely - none the less though, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, either.
My point, however, is that there are stronger reasons to have a lack of faith in God. I'm mocking the selfish nature of people who suddenly stop believing because God is no longer the perfect being for them. To me, that isn't logical reasoning. Though, like I already said, its fine - if you stop believing for reasons as topical as those, then more power to you. I personally just find the reasoning to be more selfish than not.
I have always known about Russell's teapot.
Although absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Ceasing to believe in God because you think he doesn't fit your image of a perfect being? In a different context than what you're talking about, that's not necessarily silly. A perfect being which deliberately caused the 'fall' of mankind and blamed the victim isn't perfect.
But praying once, not getting a response and not believing in God anymore after years of being devout just because of that one prayer is exceedingly stupid from their point of view.
Quote from: T-Rok on February 02, 2012, 10:33:32 AM
The LDS are taught that nearly everyone goes to heaven. Essentially it's pretty much just murderers and people who have willingly gone to learn, learned all that they could, and then still flat out denied the existence of God that end up in eternal darkness. I am willing to explain more details about this is if you would like cause it's different then what you normally hear.
Would I qualify for eternal darkness if I refused heaven because I felt that if a god exists in this universe, he's a total incompetent douche?
Because that's honestly what I would do, refuse the god and curse him out.
if we were made in gods image we would def get bored and leave everything we created and go on to something else after a few million years. My point is you shouldnt blame god cuz hes just like us, he probly got bored and is working on something OG in another dimension like raptor humans that are hyper intelligent or some shit. Really lets be honest guys we and our lives are boring as hell.
Quote from: TANK on February 02, 2012, 05:52:22 PM
if we were made in gods image we would def get bored and leave everything we created and go on to something else after a few million years. My point is you shouldnt blame god cuz hes just like us, he probly got bored and is working on something OG in another dimension like raptor humans that are hyper intelligent or some shit. Really lets be honest guys we and our lives are boring as hell.
I got learned today.
Quote from: Mystery on February 02, 2012, 04:38:02 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 01, 2012, 10:07:11 PM
Quote from: Mystery on February 01, 2012, 09:17:46 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 01, 2012, 08:43:53 PM
I'm speaking more about a person who believes in God, then when they don't get a personal answer, they stop believing. I mean, its fair - but from a logical standpoint, you're not really disproving his existence. There could be any number of reasons for a Godlike figure to refuse/fail to respond. Once again, because he doesn't fit your personal thoughts, he suddenly doesn't exist. I just find that silly.
You aren't disproving his existence because it's impossible to disprove. Anyone can always go 'you can never find him, you have to believe' or 'nothing can ever sense him' when defending the existence of a god. By the same token, it is also impossible to prove since the concept of him requires so much blind faith and many other situations (again, some hallucinations and delusions on steroids) can explain every possible situation that would arise involving a god(if the laws of physics were to be broken and 'turned on' again, for example.
Anyway, you could apply that situation to literally anything. (The Pink Invisible Unicorn doesn't respond? But you can't assume it doesn't exist! etc.) Thinking about it that way isn't helpful.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot
I understand that. It is impossible to disprove God's existence entirely - none the less though, the absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, either.
My point, however, is that there are stronger reasons to have a lack of faith in God. I'm mocking the selfish nature of people who suddenly stop believing because God is no longer the perfect being for them. To me, that isn't logical reasoning. Though, like I already said, its fine - if you stop believing for reasons as topical as those, then more power to you. I personally just find the reasoning to be more selfish than not.
I have always known about Russell's teapot.
Although absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Ceasing to believe in God because you think he doesn't fit your image of a perfect being? In a different context than what you're talking about, that's not necessarily silly. A perfect being which deliberately caused the 'fall' of mankind and blamed the victim isn't perfect.
But praying once, not getting a response and not believing in God anymore after years of being devout just because of that one prayer is exceedingly stupid from their point of view.
I just linked that because what you said reminded me of that - I wasn't trying to insinuate you didn't know/understand it.
None the less, I still find it silly. I assume when we say a person "stops believing in God", we can also extrapolate that they would then not believe in his existence. If you decide you don't want to believe in God, because he is evil, or isn't 'perfect' for you, or any other personal, superficial reason, then I'd argue you are being intellectually arrogant. In all technicallity, you can believe in God, but disagree with his method and teachings.
I mean, just because something is evil or wrong, doesn't invalidate its existence. So yet again, there is my point - to refuse to believe in a god (ie, disagree with his existence) because he does not fit your personal bill on what a god should be, just isn't logical. There are stronger, more rational reasons to doubt the existence of such a being.
"A perfect being which deliberately caused the 'fall' of mankind and blamed the victim isn't perfect." How do you know though? The definition of perfect is so hard to define... on a local level, it is different for every person. In the grand scheme of things, how can claim to know what perfection is? You're operating under our human sense of perfection - but I'd argue, isn't it possible for there to be some cosmic, omnipotent version of perfection? Something we don't know, or that we can't/don't understand?
Quote from: TANK on February 02, 2012, 05:52:22 PM
if we were made in gods image we would def get bored and leave everything we created and go on to something else after a few million years. My point is you shouldnt blame god cuz hes just like us, he probly got bored and is working on something OG in another dimension like raptor humans that are hyper intelligent or some shit. Really lets be honest guys we and our lives are boring as hell.
I would blame God because it's his fault for not fixing the problems here. Really, if he keeps it up, some ultranatural being will find him and wreck his shit.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 02, 2012, 06:15:08 PM
I just linked that because what you said reminded me of that - I wasn't trying to insinuate you didn't know/understand it.
None the less, I still find it silly. I assume when we say a person "stops believing in God", we can also extrapolate that they would then not believe in his existence. If you decide you don't want to believe in God, because he is evil, or isn't 'perfect' for you, or any other personal, superficial reason, then I'd argue you are being intellectually arrogant. In all technicallity, you can believe in God, but disagree with his method and teachings.
I mean, just because something is evil or wrong, doesn't invalidate its existence. So yet again, there is my point - to refuse to believe in a god (ie, disagree with his existence) because he does not fit your personal bill on what a god should be, just isn't logical. There are stronger, more rational reasons to doubt the existence of such a being.
"A perfect being which deliberately caused the 'fall' of mankind and blamed the victim isn't perfect." How do you know though? The definition of perfect is so hard to define... on a local level, it is different for every person. In the grand scheme of things, how can claim to know what perfection is? You're operating under our human sense of perfection - but I'd argue, isn't it possible for there to be some cosmic, omnipotent version of perfection? Something we don't know, or that we can't/don't understand?
My apologies for seemingly getting defensive.
I only talked about that because of the fact we are told by those who believe in that God that it is a certain way. They are the only reason any notion of that particular god exists in our universe. If some serious flaws in their 'reasoning'/scripture are revealed that cast their god in a very bad light, it would be reasonable to question their claims of that particular God with those qualities existing. If a god exists, but without those qualities, they were wrong anyway and those of us who are critical thinkers couldn't possibly have ever known a god existed.
That's a perfectly good point.
The definition of perfect isn't hard to define at all, it's just impossible to become, unless you can somehow defy logic at will. In fact, my example of God becoming imperfect was under the assumption he WAS perfect before he did what he did.
Quote from: Definition of perfectHaving all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
This is in every way.
Ever committing ONE act of inflicting pain to others makes you imperfect.
Even if he's not perfect, he still goes against his own supposed 'good, kind and holy' nature, and he's still a massacring, psychopathic god who shouldn't be in the place of power that he is.
Quote from: Mystery on February 02, 2012, 07:19:26 PM
Quote from: TANK on February 02, 2012, 05:52:22 PM
if we were made in gods image we would def get bored and leave everything we created and go on to something else after a few million years. My point is you shouldnt blame god cuz hes just like us, he probly got bored and is working on something OG in another dimension like raptor humans that are hyper intelligent or some shit. Really lets be honest guys we and our lives are boring as hell.
I would blame God because it's his fault for not fixing the problems here. Really, if he keeps it up, some ultranatural being will find him and wreck his shit.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 02, 2012, 06:15:08 PM
I just linked that because what you said reminded me of that - I wasn't trying to insinuate you didn't know/understand it.
None the less, I still find it silly. I assume when we say a person "stops believing in God", we can also extrapolate that they would then not believe in his existence. If you decide you don't want to believe in God, because he is evil, or isn't 'perfect' for you, or any other personal, superficial reason, then I'd argue you are being intellectually arrogant. In all technicallity, you can believe in God, but disagree with his method and teachings.
I mean, just because something is evil or wrong, doesn't invalidate its existence. So yet again, there is my point - to refuse to believe in a god (ie, disagree with his existence) because he does not fit your personal bill on what a god should be, just isn't logical. There are stronger, more rational reasons to doubt the existence of such a being.
"A perfect being which deliberately caused the 'fall' of mankind and blamed the victim isn't perfect." How do you know though? The definition of perfect is so hard to define... on a local level, it is different for every person. In the grand scheme of things, how can claim to know what perfection is? You're operating under our human sense of perfection - but I'd argue, isn't it possible for there to be some cosmic, omnipotent version of perfection? Something we don't know, or that we can't/don't understand?
My apologies for seemingly getting defensive.
I only talked about that because of the fact we are told by those who believe in that God that it is a certain way. They are the only reason any notion of that particular god exists in our universe. If some serious flaws in their 'reasoning'/scripture are revealed that cast their god in a very bad light, it would be reasonable to question their claims of that particular God with those qualities existing. If a god exists, but without those qualities, they were wrong anyway and those of us who are critical thinkers couldn't possibly have ever known a god existed.
That's a perfectly good point.
The definition of perfect isn't hard to define at all, it's just impossible to become, unless you can somehow defy logic at will. In fact, my example of God becoming imperfect was under the assumption he WAS perfect before he did what he did.
Quote from: Definition of perfectHaving all the required or desirable elements, qualities, or characteristics; as good as it is possible to be.
This is in every way.
Ever committing ONE act of inflicting pain to others makes you imperfect.
Even if he's not perfect, he still goes against his own supposed 'good, kind and holy' nature, and he's still a massacring, psychopathic god who shouldn't be in the place of power that he is.
Yeah, that's where my little deal falls apart - Bible/Top Religious folk say God is 'A', but you discover he is really 'B', now you have cause to question what/who and whether God really is. That is fair.
As for perfection.... "Ever committing ONE act of inflicting pain to others makes you imperfect" <- Again, that is just our definition. How come inflicting pain can't be part of perfection?
Our sense of right and wrong is purely a social construct. Well, I don't know if I can say that with certainty - some argue its an innate sense that we are born with, others argue it is just a social construct, and some say it comes from God or whatever else...
So that's where I'm going with this, I suppose. If there is a God, and he is as maniacal as he seems right now, couldn't it be possible he is still perfect in a sense greater than our own perceived definition?
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 02, 2012, 07:41:14 PM
Yeah, that's where my little deal falls apart - Bible/Top Religious folk say God is 'A', but you discover he is really 'B', now you have cause to question what/who and whether God really is. That is fair.
As for perfection.... "Ever committing ONE act of inflicting pain to others makes you imperfect" <- Again, that is just our definition. How come inflicting pain can't be part of perfection?
Our sense of right and wrong is purely a social construct. Well, I don't know if I can say that with certainty - some argue its an innate sense that we are born with, others argue it is just a social construct, and some say it comes from God or whatever else...
So that's where I'm going with this, I suppose. If there is a God, and he is as maniacal as he seems right now, couldn't it be possible he is still perfect in a sense greater than our own perceived definition?
It's not an innate sense or anything, it's really just good intentions(empathy and being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes) combined with common sense which has applied to all sentient beings extremely well so far. Morals are developed from scratch.
If I get what you're saying, you could also apply that to anything. Twist our definition of something, call it 'the supernatural definition' of that thing, and voila. It's easy. So yes, it would be possible then
Though, if he is perfect in a divine way, I'd say our definition of perfect is infinitesimally better than the divine one.
And even if he's perfect, he's still a being which is horrible, wretched, and evil, shouldn't be in the position he is and one that isn't worthy of worship.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 02, 2012, 06:15:08 PM
None the less, I still find it silly. I assume when we say a person "stops believing in God", we can also extrapolate that they would then not believe in his existence. If you decide you don't want to believe in God, because he is evil, or isn't 'perfect' for you, or any other personal, superficial reason, then I'd argue you are being intellectually arrogant. In all technicallity, you can believe in God, but disagree with his method and teachings.
I mean, just because something is evil or wrong, doesn't invalidate its existence. So yet again, there is my point - to refuse to believe in a god (ie, disagree with his existence) because he does not fit your personal bill on what a god should be, just isn't logical. There are stronger, more rational reasons to doubt the existence of such a being.
If someone wants me to believe in a God that tortures kids for fun, it wouldn't lead me to believe "Hey, this God isn't perfect, he's actually evil!", instead I'd argue that the likelihood of that God even existing are pretty small. I don't deny that God could be literally anything we imagine, but his chances of being similar to what any specific person on earth thinks he actually is, is pretty low.
If somebody says "God is evil", or "God is all loving", it's safe to say that those are total assumptions, therefore the likelihood that they are true is fairly low. Now, there are logical deductions that we can make about God partly based on how we define him. For example, God is omnipotent. If he's not omnipotent, then he's not what I would call a God. And then from there we can make a list of traits he probably doesn't have by being all powerful. For example, an omnipotent being is not weak, they don't crave ice cream, they don't have human emotion, etc. So when people tell me that a God exists in the sky that strikes people down in anger, or experiences a wide range of emotion just like humans who have something called a brain and brain chemistry, it causes me to logically doubt the likelihoods of their version of Gods existence.
Quote from: Jake on February 02, 2012, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 02, 2012, 06:15:08 PM
None the less, I still find it silly. I assume when we say a person "stops believing in God", we can also extrapolate that they would then not believe in his existence. If you decide you don't want to believe in God, because he is evil, or isn't 'perfect' for you, or any other personal, superficial reason, then I'd argue you are being intellectually arrogant. In all technicallity, you can believe in God, but disagree with his method and teachings.
I mean, just because something is evil or wrong, doesn't invalidate its existence. So yet again, there is my point - to refuse to believe in a god (ie, disagree with his existence) because he does not fit your personal bill on what a god should be, just isn't logical. There are stronger, more rational reasons to doubt the existence of such a being.
If someone wants me to believe in a God that tortures kids for fun, it wouldn't lead me to believe "Hey, this God isn't perfect, he's actually evil!", instead I'd argue that the likelihood of that God even existing are pretty small. I don't deny that God could be literally anything we imagine, but his chances of being similar to what any specific person on earth thinks he actually is, is pretty low.
If somebody says "God is evil", or "God is all loving", it's safe to say that those are total assumptions, therefore the likelihood that they are true is fairly low. Now, there are logical deductions that we can make about God partly based on how we define him. For example, God is omnipotent. If he's not omnipotent, then he's not what I would call a God. And then from there we can make a list of traits he probably doesn't have by being all powerful. For example, an omnipotent being is not weak, they don't crave ice cream, they don't have human emotion, etc. So when people tell me that a God exists in the sky that strikes people down in anger, or experiences a wide range of emotion just like humans who have something called a brain and brain chemistry, it causes me to logically doubt the likelihoods of their version of Gods existence.
Forgive me, I think I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure I'm making the connection between what you are saying and what I said. Are you disagreeing with my proposed assumption? If I'm being really stupid for not understanding, sorry. >.<
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 02, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
Quote from: Jake on February 02, 2012, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 02, 2012, 06:15:08 PM
None the less, I still find it silly. I assume when we say a person "stops believing in God", we can also extrapolate that they would then not believe in his existence. If you decide you don't want to believe in God, because he is evil, or isn't 'perfect' for you, or any other personal, superficial reason, then I'd argue you are being intellectually arrogant. In all technicallity, you can believe in God, but disagree with his method and teachings.
I mean, just because something is evil or wrong, doesn't invalidate its existence. So yet again, there is my point - to refuse to believe in a god (ie, disagree with his existence) because he does not fit your personal bill on what a god should be, just isn't logical. There are stronger, more rational reasons to doubt the existence of such a being.
If someone wants me to believe in a God that tortures kids for fun, it wouldn't lead me to believe "Hey, this God isn't perfect, he's actually evil!", instead I'd argue that the likelihood of that God even existing are pretty small. I don't deny that God could be literally anything we imagine, but his chances of being similar to what any specific person on earth thinks he actually is, is pretty low.
If somebody says "God is evil", or "God is all loving", it's safe to say that those are total assumptions, therefore the likelihood that they are true is fairly low. Now, there are logical deductions that we can make about God partly based on how we define him. For example, God is omnipotent. If he's not omnipotent, then he's not what I would call a God. And then from there we can make a list of traits he probably doesn't have by being all powerful. For example, an omnipotent being is not weak, they don't crave ice cream, they don't have human emotion, etc. So when people tell me that a God exists in the sky that strikes people down in anger, or experiences a wide range of emotion just like humans who have something called a brain and brain chemistry, it causes me to logically doubt the likelihoods of their version of Gods existence.
Forgive me, I think I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure I'm making the connection between what you are saying and what I said. Are you disagreeing with my proposed assumption? If I'm being really stupid for not understanding, sorry. >.<
You talk about people lacking belief in God because he's evil, or for other reasons, and say it's intellectually dishonest. I would argue that one can logically doubt the likelihood of someones specific version of God existing, based on what traits that person gives him. Everyone on this planet has a different perception of who God is, whether he can have different emotions, whether he likes gay people, etc. The chances that that persons specific version of God exists is extremely low. If somebody told me God hates babies, I would doubt the version of that Gods existence for two reasons. One, there is an infinite amount of different versions of Gods out there, so the chances of that specific version being correct are pretty low. Two, I don't believe an omnipotent being can hate.
After reading Mystery's post, I'm basically just mimicking what he already said. I'll post it here, because he explained it pretty well.
QuoteI only talked about that because of the fact we are told by those who believe in that God that it is a certain way. They are the only reason any notion of that particular god exists in our universe. If some serious flaws in their 'reasoning'/scripture are revealed that cast their god in a very bad light, it would be reasonable to question their claims of that particular God with those qualities existing. If a god exists, but without those qualities, they were wrong anyway and those of us who are critical thinkers couldn't possibly have ever known a god existed.
Quote from: Jake on February 02, 2012, 08:58:32 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 02, 2012, 08:38:11 PM
Quote from: Jake on February 02, 2012, 08:15:52 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 02, 2012, 06:15:08 PM
None the less, I still find it silly. I assume when we say a person "stops believing in God", we can also extrapolate that they would then not believe in his existence. If you decide you don't want to believe in God, because he is evil, or isn't 'perfect' for you, or any other personal, superficial reason, then I'd argue you are being intellectually arrogant. In all technicallity, you can believe in God, but disagree with his method and teachings.
I mean, just because something is evil or wrong, doesn't invalidate its existence. So yet again, there is my point - to refuse to believe in a god (ie, disagree with his existence) because he does not fit your personal bill on what a god should be, just isn't logical. There are stronger, more rational reasons to doubt the existence of such a being.
If someone wants me to believe in a God that tortures kids for fun, it wouldn't lead me to believe "Hey, this God isn't perfect, he's actually evil!", instead I'd argue that the likelihood of that God even existing are pretty small. I don't deny that God could be literally anything we imagine, but his chances of being similar to what any specific person on earth thinks he actually is, is pretty low.
If somebody says "God is evil", or "God is all loving", it's safe to say that those are total assumptions, therefore the likelihood that they are true is fairly low. Now, there are logical deductions that we can make about God partly based on how we define him. For example, God is omnipotent. If he's not omnipotent, then he's not what I would call a God. And then from there we can make a list of traits he probably doesn't have by being all powerful. For example, an omnipotent being is not weak, they don't crave ice cream, they don't have human emotion, etc. So when people tell me that a God exists in the sky that strikes people down in anger, or experiences a wide range of emotion just like humans who have something called a brain and brain chemistry, it causes me to logically doubt the likelihoods of their version of Gods existence.
Forgive me, I think I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure I'm making the connection between what you are saying and what I said. Are you disagreeing with my proposed assumption? If I'm being really stupid for not understanding, sorry. >.<
You talk about people lacking belief in God because he's evil, or for other reasons, and say it's intellectually dishonest. I would argue that one can logically doubt the likelihood of someones specific version of God existing, based on what traits that person gives him. Everyone on this planet has a different perception of who God is, whether he can have different emotions, whether he likes gay people, etc. The chances that that persons specific version of God exists is extremely low. If somebody told me God hates babies, I would doubt the version of that Gods existence for two reasons. One, there is an infinite amount of different versions of Gods out there, so the chances of that specific version being correct are pretty low. Two, I don't believe an omnipotent being can hate.
After reading Mystery's post, I'm basically just mimicking what he already said. I'll post it here, because he explained it pretty well.
QuoteI only talked about that because of the fact we are told by those who believe in that God that it is a certain way. They are the only reason any notion of that particular god exists in our universe. If some serious flaws in their 'reasoning'/scripture are revealed that cast their god in a very bad light, it would be reasonable to question their claims of that particular God with those qualities existing. If a god exists, but without those qualities, they were wrong anyway and those of us who are critical thinkers couldn't possibly have ever known a god existed.
Ah okay, fair enough. That I can agree with, but it kind of fits in with what I'm saying. The fact that everyone has their own definition is also part of the my reasoning for saying what I am - you aren't taking in anyone else's or the 'set' idea, just your own.
Though.. hm... I'm having trouble trying to put to words what I want to say.
I might just be being pretentious. I'll have to think about this again.
Quote from: T-Rok on February 02, 2012, 10:33:32 AM
The LDS are taught that nearly everyone goes to heaven. Essentially it's pretty much just murderers and people who have willingly gone to learn, learned all that they could, and then still flat out denied the existence of God that end up in eternal darkness. I am willing to explain more details about this is if you would like cause it's different then what you normally hear.
Can gay people go to heaven?
Also, why do murderers get eternal hell? There is literally nothing someone can do to deserve infinite suffering. Eventually their pain would so greatly outweigh their crime that it would just be sadistic torture. I can not think of a single possible reason that a loving, merciful, caring god would do this to someone.
Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 02, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
This is kind of like what I mentioned above; the Bible says people were created by God to be like God (obviously not to the extent of demigods in many religions, but still pretty powerful) and therefore have free will; unlike God, however, people aren't totally unlimited, nor are they totally perfect. We're still perfectly capable of doing mostly good things, and I think I can say without sounding like some kind of nutcase who thinks he's a god that we're a lot more powerful than we give ourselves (or give God) credit for.
Is there anything that happens that god did not predict? The bible goes on and on about how god has a plan for everyone. If I can't do something that is outside of his plan, then I don't really have free will.
Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 01:17:14 AM
Quote from: T-Rok on February 02, 2012, 10:33:32 AM
The LDS are taught that nearly everyone goes to heaven. Essentially it's pretty much just murderers and people who have willingly gone to learn, learned all that they could, and then still flat out denied the existence of God that end up in eternal darkness. I am willing to explain more details about this is if you would like cause it's different then what you normally hear.
Can gay people go to heaven?
Also, why do murderers get eternal hell? There is literally nothing someone can do to deserve infinite suffering. Eventually their pain would so greatly outweigh their crime that it would just be sadistic torture. I can not think of a single possible reason that a loving, merciful, caring god would do this to someone.
Gay people can indeed go to heaven. I don't recall the exact details, but they do end up in heaven. I do know they have limitations though. This is one of the reasons I don't actively participate in the church. I have many gay friends and it's not fair for them to be limited for something they don't choose to do but are born with. Kind of like how African Americans used to be limited in the old days.
They aren't eternally in hell. Eternal darkness is just the name of it, not a concept. Anyone cast into eternal darkness can repent and move to the Telestial kingdom. This is one of the rare cases you can move upward. If you are on a higher level, you can visit any level that is below you. But you can't go up. People of the Celestial get to see God and Christ, where as people of the Terestial and Telestial only get to see Christ.
Here let me explain the places.
Eternal Darkness, it's the very bottom, also not a part of heaven.
Telestial kingdom, it's the first level of heaven.
Terestial kingdom, it's the second level of heaven.
Celestial kindgom, the third level of heaven but it also has three levels within it.
-1st: Anyone who dies before they are eight. People on this level are given a chance to marry and move to the 3rd level.
-2nd: I honestly don't remember what this one is. But it requires you to be baptized into the church, that much I know.
-3rd and highest: People who live to the best of their abilities in the gospel and are married for eternity in the temple. The people of this level get to create their own world.
I'm pretty sure I'm remembering all this correctly. It's been nearly 6 years since I have actively participated. But I still believe.
Quote from: T-Rok on February 03, 2012, 02:27:09 AM
Gay people can indeed go to heaven. I don't recall the exact details, but they do end up in heaven. I do know they have limitations though. This is one of the reasons I don't actively participate in the church. I have many gay friends and it's not fair for them to be limited for something they don't choose to do but are born with. Kind of like how African Americans used to be limited in the old days.
So you know God is unfairly discriminating but you choose to follow and worship him anyways?
Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 08:44:49 AM
Quote from: T-Rok on February 03, 2012, 02:27:09 AM
Gay people can indeed go to heaven. I don't recall the exact details, but they do end up in heaven. I do know they have limitations though. This is one of the reasons I don't actively participate in the church. I have many gay friends and it's not fair for them to be limited for something they don't choose to do but are born with. Kind of like how African Americans used to be limited in the old days.
So you know God is unfairly discriminating but you choose to follow and worship him anyways?
Haha, nice try good sir. However your word choice does not dignify an answer. I know nothing. It was explained to me once, and the explanation seemed valid, mind you I wasn't listening, I was busy flirting with the girl beside me. ;) I'm pretty sure the only limitation homosexual people have is no third level Celestial. Who knows. Maybe I'm completely wrong and they don't even get that high. :O Wouldn't that be something for you to gripe about, eh? For all I know it's along the same lines as the reason African Americans weren't allowed in the church.
Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 01:17:14 AM
Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 02, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
This is kind of like what I mentioned above; the Bible says people were created by God to be like God (obviously not to the extent of demigods in many religions, but still pretty powerful) and therefore have free will; unlike God, however, people aren't totally unlimited, nor are they totally perfect. We're still perfectly capable of doing mostly good things, and I think I can say without sounding like some kind of nutcase who thinks he's a god that we're a lot more powerful than we give ourselves (or give God) credit for.
Is there anything that happens that god did not predict? The bible goes on and on about how god has a plan for everyone. If I can't do something that is outside of his plan, then I don't really have free will.
Knowing that something's going to happen is not the same as forcing that thing to happen. If someone randomly goes on a killing spree just to screw with God's planning, although it obviously goes against the goal of everyone loving each other and treating each other with respect, God still knew it was gonna happen.
When we make plans for something, we base them on things we can reasonably expect to happen in the future. I suppose it would be the same way for an omniscient god, only he/she/it (since I'm speaking from a general standpoint here) doesn't just reasonably expect things to happen; it KNOWS what will happen. Of course, in the case of the Judeo-Christian God at least, He does occasionally exercise his Godly power to perform miracles and shake things up a bit, but we still have free will as to how we react to the miracles, and He still knows how we'll react.
Pretty much like Sims games: the sims have a puny level of artificial intelligence and can do things without constant input from the player, but on occasion need outside guidance (obviously a lot more in the game than in the real world, since it wouldn't be a game if it wasn't interactive, but hopefully the analogy makes sense)
I don't believe in God myself. That being said, I would prefer a version of reality in which God is real, some religion is correct, and I go to Hell, I would prefer that to a version of reality where moral relativism is reality. The idea that any horrible thing can be justified by saying "Right and wrong are not absolute, vary depending on society" scares the hell out of me, it scares me far more than the idea that I'm going to hell.
Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 03, 2012, 12:14:21 PM
Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 01:17:14 AM
Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 02, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
This is kind of like what I mentioned above; the Bible says people were created by God to be like God (obviously not to the extent of demigods in many religions, but still pretty powerful) and therefore have free will; unlike God, however, people aren't totally unlimited, nor are they totally perfect. We're still perfectly capable of doing mostly good things, and I think I can say without sounding like some kind of nutcase who thinks he's a god that we're a lot more powerful than we give ourselves (or give God) credit for.
Is there anything that happens that god did not predict? The bible goes on and on about how god has a plan for everyone. If I can't do something that is outside of his plan, then I don't really have free will.
Knowing that something's going to happen is not the same as forcing that thing to happen. If someone randomly goes on a killing spree just to screw with God's planning, although it obviously goes against the goal of everyone loving each other and treating each other with respect, God still knew it was gonna happen.
When we make plans for something, we base them on things we can reasonably expect to happen in the future. I suppose it would be the same way for an omniscient god, only he/she/it (since I'm speaking from a general standpoint here) doesn't just reasonably expect things to happen; it KNOWS what will happen. Of course, in the case of the Judeo-Christian God at least, He does occasionally exercise his Godly power to perform miracles and shake things up a bit, but we still have free will as to how we react to the miracles, and He still knows how we'll react.
Pretty much like Sims games: the sims have a puny level of artificial intelligence and can do things without constant input from the player, but on occasion need outside guidance (obviously a lot more in the game than in the real world, since it wouldn't be a game if it wasn't interactive, but hopefully the analogy makes sense)
Going on your analogy, here god isn't just the player. He is the programmer as well. He coded the puny level of artificial intelligence in the game and also is the outside guidance. When he created everything he knew exactly how everything would turn out. For example let's say he made me. My brain makes decisions right? However those decisions are based on my brain structure. And that brain structure was decided ultimately by him.
Even if you say our "soul" makes decisions. My soul was made by him too since he made everything. He decided what kind of person I should be and anything I do is a result of how he initially designed my mind/soul.
Quote from: Specialboy on February 03, 2012, 12:48:33 PM
I don't believe in God myself. That being said, I would prefer a version of reality in which God is real, some religion is correct, and I go to Hell, I would prefer that to a version of reality where moral relativism is reality. The idea that any horrible thing can be justified by saying "Right and wrong are not absolute, vary depending on society" scares the hell out of me, it scares me far more than the idea that I'm going to hell.
A static, universal, view of morality is much more horrible than a morality that we can base on logic and empathy for others.
i dont know jake ide rather the rules of right and wrong stay the same as they are in the bible ; static and universal. Who knows thousands of years in the future our empathy might skewer based on how were raised and we will value life less or who knows. I think the bible was written by a couple of good people who were years ahead of their time and wanted to promote peace in the future the only way they could see how, lieng. Whether gods real or not or what people take the christian religion as i think its bettered humanity and its veiws and morals are near perfect for me.
Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 04:28:21 PM
Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 03, 2012, 12:14:21 PM
Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 01:17:14 AM
Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 02, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
This is kind of like what I mentioned above; the Bible says people were created by God to be like God (obviously not to the extent of demigods in many religions, but still pretty powerful) and therefore have free will; unlike God, however, people aren't totally unlimited, nor are they totally perfect. We're still perfectly capable of doing mostly good things, and I think I can say without sounding like some kind of nutcase who thinks he's a god that we're a lot more powerful than we give ourselves (or give God) credit for.
Is there anything that happens that god did not predict? The bible goes on and on about how god has a plan for everyone. If I can't do something that is outside of his plan, then I don't really have free will.
Knowing that something's going to happen is not the same as forcing that thing to happen. If someone randomly goes on a killing spree just to screw with God's planning, although it obviously goes against the goal of everyone loving each other and treating each other with respect, God still knew it was gonna happen.
When we make plans for something, we base them on things we can reasonably expect to happen in the future. I suppose it would be the same way for an omniscient god, only he/she/it (since I'm speaking from a general standpoint here) doesn't just reasonably expect things to happen; it KNOWS what will happen. Of course, in the case of the Judeo-Christian God at least, He does occasionally exercise his Godly power to perform miracles and shake things up a bit, but we still have free will as to how we react to the miracles, and He still knows how we'll react.
Pretty much like Sims games: the sims have a puny level of artificial intelligence and can do things without constant input from the player, but on occasion need outside guidance (obviously a lot more in the game than in the real world, since it wouldn't be a game if it wasn't interactive, but hopefully the analogy makes sense)
Going on your analogy, here god isn't just the player. He is the programmer as well. He coded the puny level of artificial intelligence in the game and also is the outside guidance. When he created everything he knew exactly how everything would turn out. For example let's say he made me. My brain makes decisions right? However those decisions are based on my brain structure. And that brain structure was decided ultimately by him.
Even if you say our "soul" makes decisions. My soul was made by him too since he made everything. He decided what kind of person I should be and anything I do is a result of how he initially designed my mind/soul.
To be fair, if we weren't created by an intelligent being we'd still be living based entirely on our brain structures, there just wouldn't be someone who knows exactly how those brain structures work and exactly what causes and effects would happen throughout all of time.
Quote from: Jake on February 03, 2012, 07:10:46 PM
Quote from: Specialboy on February 03, 2012, 12:48:33 PM
I don't believe in God myself. That being said, I would prefer a version of reality in which God is real, some religion is correct, and I go to Hell, I would prefer that to a version of reality where moral relativism is reality. The idea that any horrible thing can be justified by saying "Right and wrong are not absolute, vary depending on society" scares the hell out of me, it scares me far more than the idea that I'm going to hell.
A static, universal, view of morality is much more horrible than a morality that we can base on logic and empathy for others.
What if said static, universal view IS based on logic and empathy?
Quote from: TANK on February 03, 2012, 08:37:47 PM
i dont know jake ide rather the rules of right and wrong stay the same as they are in the bible ; static and universal. Who knows thousands of years in the future our empathy might skewer based on how were raised and we will value life less or who knows. I think the bible was written by a couple of good people who were years ahead of their time and wanted to promote peace in the future the only way they could see how, lieng. Whether gods real or not or what people take the christian religion as i think its bettered humanity and its veiws and morals are near perfect for me.
Explain why it condones and 'justifies' rape, getting away with crimes, murder, wholesale slaughter, genocide, getting away with crimes if you have power, eternal punishment for finite crimes, blaming the victim in truly horrible crimes, treating women as inferior and wiping out an entire planet. Those are just off the top of my head; there's more than that.
And explain why the God(which is supposedly all that is good and perfect) in that book is the most psychopathic, horrific being I have known to date. Not even the worst fictional ones I can imagine stand up to him. Dormammu is nothing compared to 'the Father'.
Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 03, 2012, 08:50:30 PM
Quote from: Jake on February 03, 2012, 07:10:46 PM
Quote from: Specialboy on February 03, 2012, 12:48:33 PM
I don't believe in God myself. That being said, I would prefer a version of reality in which God is real, some religion is correct, and I go to Hell, I would prefer that to a version of reality where moral relativism is reality. The idea that any horrible thing can be justified by saying "Right and wrong are not absolute, vary depending on society" scares the hell out of me, it scares me far more than the idea that I'm going to hell.
A static, universal, view of morality is much more horrible than a morality that we can base on logic and empathy for others.
What if said static, universal view IS based on logic and empathy?
If it was static, it would become irrelevant. Society changes, morality has to adapt.
Quote from: Mystery on February 03, 2012, 08:52:00 PM
Quote from: TANK on February 03, 2012, 08:37:47 PM
i dont know jake ide rather the rules of right and wrong stay the same as they are in the bible ; static and universal. Who knows thousands of years in the future our empathy might skewer based on how were raised and we will value life less or who knows. I think the bible was written by a couple of good people who were years ahead of their time and wanted to promote peace in the future the only way they could see how, lieng. Whether gods real or not or what people take the christian religion as i think its bettered humanity and its veiws and morals are near perfect for me.
Explain why it condones and 'justifies' rape, getting away with crimes, murder, wholesale slaughter, genocide, getting away with crimes if you have power, eternal punishment for finite crimes, blaming the victim in truly horrible crimes, treating women as inferior and wiping out an entire planet. Those are just off the top of my head; there's more than that.
And explain why the God(which is supposedly all that is good and perfect) in that book is the most psychopathic, horrific being I have known to date. Not even the worst fictional ones I can imagine stand up to him. Dormammu is nothing compared to 'the Father'.
Im not sure about rape and getting away with crimes are anywhere in the bible besides the whole repenting jazz, which i dont think should make you forgiven just maybe clear you're conscience. Although i do understand the treating women as inferior because thats how things were back then and i never said it was perfect. Through all the stories my dad has told me from the bible ive never ran into any talking about rape and wiping out the entire planet . Most of the ones he would tell me about had to do with jesus walking around curing diseases, teaching moral lessons, and how god unleashed plague and sickness onto the world because the first humans adam and eve fell to greed and !@#$ed wit his apple tree. Ive never heard of storys promoting rape and that shit but if you could find them in there and write them here it would be interesting to read and ide shut my trap.
Also im not so sure god is a perfect being, but there is lots of good in the world and lots of bad. Maybe he cant control what he set in motion, who the !@#$ knows how it works you guys just cant assume everythings set out and predicted.
Personally I am Agnostic-Atheist, between Atheism and Deism because well, I feel that all religion relative to worship of a deity is empty. Probably the most well known book out there, the Bible, is seen as the words of a deity through the mankind in which it created, for the mankind it created, so that they can understand it, because well aparently just letting them all known instantly is no fun or something. I am made to go to church every Sunday, with my family who knows of my position on religion, because they feel that somehow, someway, their god with change me to believe in him. As for me, I'm set in my own religious view, because every time I've heard of it, it seems to me just like a book, a story told through generations like the Harry Potter books. A nice tale of wonder and things that we in our lives, have not and most likely will not see, ever. But the reality this book has made is a bit of a double edged sword. It's brought upon unity of some people, and has helped people find something that they can use as a peaceful grouding agent for themselves. But other than that, if you look into the history of things, perfect example being the Crusaders, Hundreds of thousands of people were murdered over religion. It blinds people to logic at times, and creates some really kind, but ignorant people.
Heres a little personal story. My dad decided "Hey, I'm going to try to convert my son by talking to him about religion in a debate." The conversation was going on, and I had put up a very established and valid defence together versus his reasoning, and then I posed question's that occur from the actual bibles story itself. I said,"Okay dad, well can you admit that time is told by the rotations of the earth on its axis as it travels around the suns gravitational pull?" He said, "Yes, that is true". I then replied "Well lets go to the begining dad. If god created the earth in 7 days, and didn't create the sun until the 4th day if im not mistaken, how was it possible to determine the exact time for the previous days, if the sun had not come into creation until that 4th day?" And you know his reply? It was "Well he's god, so of course he knew." You can see how irrational that assumption is. And in the end, he completely failed and got to the point where he himself told me that I would go to hell for not believing, which I really didn't care due to my disbelief in it anyways lol.
Anyways, this has all been buildup to as why I wouldn't believe in a deity but, as to being agnostic, I do not deny the possibility of one. But it being a personal deity is completely out of my recognition. I think that if there is a god, its one that does not have anything to deal with us at all, and we are just here to be here. Collecting fragments of information playing out our own lifes as we see fit. We've established society as it is based off not just religious principles, but common sense.
Ex.If one person takes another person out of the group,say murders the person, the group naturally reacts in a couple ways. 1. Works harder as to not be seen as dead weight to be the next murder. 2. Panic's and runs, causing less work effort overall. 3. Attacks the person whom did the murder in order to get revenged, say if they are close, or out of self defense due to the fact that our basic upon basic trait is the one of survival. Whats this say about morality for murder? It says that we have choices. If you don't want it to happen well hell, don't do it and none of that shet happens, and everybody is cool. If you do, well that's whats gonna happen. We can say "Oh well my god's commandments say I shouldn't do this or shouldn't do that" but its the choices of people that determines their actions, and what we would classify as their morals. What that bible of yours will do, is just change the way you think about how that action will effect you. If you believe in it, you'll probably say "That's what it said, so I'm gonna do what it said." That's a influence of your beliefs. You choose based off what you Believe. Just because you believe it, doesn't make it any more true. If you say its because "god made it that way", well get out, because that sounds just like "they made me do it". Just another excuse.
~Sorry if anybody is offended by this. I only kinda read the 7th page, so I'm not aware of the full conversation, but I just put my imput on the matter overall.
Quote from: TANK on February 03, 2012, 09:33:50 PM
Quote from: Mystery on February 03, 2012, 08:52:00 PM
Quote from: TANK on February 03, 2012, 08:37:47 PM
i dont know jake ide rather the rules of right and wrong stay the same as they are in the bible ; static and universal. Who knows thousands of years in the future our empathy might skewer based on how were raised and we will value life less or who knows. I think the bible was written by a couple of good people who were years ahead of their time and wanted to promote peace in the future the only way they could see how, lieng. Whether gods real or not or what people take the christian religion as i think its bettered humanity and its veiws and morals are near perfect for me.
Explain why it condones and 'justifies' rape, getting away with crimes, murder, wholesale slaughter, genocide, getting away with crimes if you have power, eternal punishment for finite crimes, blaming the victim in truly horrible crimes, treating women as inferior and wiping out an entire planet. Those are just off the top of my head; there's more than that.
And explain why the God(which is supposedly all that is good and perfect) in that book is the most psychopathic, horrific being I have known to date. Not even the worst fictional ones I can imagine stand up to him. Dormammu is nothing compared to 'the Father'.
Im not sure about rape and getting away with crimes are anywhere in the bible besides the whole repenting jazz, which i dont think should make you forgiven just maybe clear you're conscience. Although i do understand the treating women as inferior because thats how things were back then and i never said it was perfect. Through all the stories my dad has told me from the bible ive never ran into any talking about rape and wiping out the entire planet . Most of the ones he would tell me about had to do with jesus walking around curing diseases, teaching moral lessons, and how god unleashed plague and sickness onto the world because the first humans adam and eve fell to greed and !@#$ed wit his apple tree. Ive never heard of storys promoting rape and that shit but if you could find them in there and write them here it would be interesting to read and ide shut my trap.
I'll start with passages condoning rape and the punishment of rape victims.
Judges 21:10-24 NLT
Numbers 31:7-18 NLT
Deuteronomy 20:10-14
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT
Deuteronomy 22:23-24 NAB
2 Samuel 12:11-14 NAB
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 NAB
Judges 5:30 NAB
Exodus 21:7-11 NLT
Zechariah 14:1-2 NAB
QuoteAlso im not so sure god is a perfect being, but there is lots of good in the world and lots of bad. Maybe he cant control what he set in motion, who the !@#$ knows how it works you guys just cant assume everythings set out and predicted.
We don't claim to know how it works, that's what religious people do. If God cannot control what he set into motion, then he is not omnipotent. If he is not omnipotent, then there's no reason to call him God.
Quote from: Jake on February 04, 2012, 02:57:48 AM
QuoteAlso im not so sure god is a perfect being, but there is lots of good in the world and lots of bad. Maybe he cant control what he set in motion, who the !@#$ knows how it works you guys just cant assume everythings set out and predicted.
We don't claim to know how it works, that's what religious people do. If God cannot control what he set into motion, then he is not omnipotent. If he is not omnipotent, then there's no reason to call him God.
(http://dash.ponychan.net/chan/files/src/132374420125.jpg)
what would we call him then our creator, its pretty much the same thing. Who knows maybe he made it so things could spiral out of control and we could make our own decisions on purpose. Maybe he wanted us to live a free life where nothing is predetermined and we can evolve based on whatever random chaos he implemented, and maybe in a higher state of mind above ours that is omnipotent. We can form our own destiny based on what hes given us, and i think thats how it was intended to be. Hell maybe god created the planet and expected life but something intelligent came of it and completely surprised him. Maybe thats when he sent jesus down to set down some morals, or we just developed our good will and senses on our own because were social creatures. These kinds of things will never be solved, and even if you prove the bible is complete malarky it will never disprove that we dont have a god, so all this atheism ranting and arguing really gets anyone nowhere besides maybe making people doubt there faith that has provided a strong backbone and good will towards others. Really if half of some of the religious people realized that when we died there would be no consequences in hell and the only place we would get served is on earth there would be alot more abortions and alot more violence i think.
Quote from: TANK on February 04, 2012, 01:39:20 PM
what would we call him then our creator, its pretty much the same thing. Who knows maybe he made it so things could spiral out of control and we could make our own decisions on purpose. Maybe he wanted us to live a free life where nothing is predetermined and we can evolve based on whatever random chaos he implemented, and maybe in a higher state of mind above ours that is omnipotent. We can form our own destiny based on what hes given us, and i think thats how it was intended to be. Hell maybe god created the planet and expected life but something intelligent came of it and completely surprised him. Maybe thats when he sent jesus down to set down some morals, or we just developed our good will and senses on our own because were social creatures. These kinds of things will never be solved, and even if you prove the bible is complete malarky it will never disprove that we dont have a god, so all this atheism ranting and arguing really gets anyone nowhere besides maybe making people doubt there faith that has provided a strong backbone and good will towards others. Really if half of some of the religious people realized that when we died there would be no consequences in hell and the only place we would get served is on earth there would be alot more abortions and alot more violence i think.
But it goes both ways.. All this christian ranting and arguing really gets nowhere, and none of it will ever prove there IS a god either. I'm atheist and my good will towards others is effing fantastic, I don't need religion for that. There are religious nut jobs who kill people too, just like there are atheists who wouldn't hurt a fly. I think it's more of who people are. But hey, if the thought of hell keeps some psycho religious people at bay, then more power to it.
i like the christian ranting and arguing better than athiest. Thats just because ide like to believe theres a god, an atheists point of veiw to me is depressing (just my op though, maybe to some people the thought of not knowing and understanding everything is depressing). I do agree that if people are good or not depends mostly on there chemistry, life experiences, and maybe how they were raised, but im sure some potentially bad people find religion and it gives them just the push they need.
My friend who was atheist told me this today. "I was atheist until I figured, what's the harm in thinking that God exists just in case he does. I don't lose anything, and I get a nice insurance policy just in case." It made me lul cause if you look at what many religions teach, it's true.
Quote from: T-Rok on February 04, 2012, 02:28:16 PM
My friend who was atheist told me this today. "I was atheist until I figured, what's the harm in thinking that God exists just in case he does. I don't lose anything, and I get a nice insurance policy just in case." It made me lul cause if you look at what many religions teach, it's true.
An omnipotent god could easily tell if you are religious solely to avoid hell, and send you to hell anyways. Your mental freedom to a magical man in the sky whom you have no evidence of existing is what you lose.
Yes I'm fun at parties.
Quote from: Yankyal on February 04, 2012, 02:51:13 PM
Quote from: T-Rok on February 04, 2012, 02:28:16 PM
My friend who was atheist told me this today. "I was atheist until I figured, what's the harm in thinking that God exists just in case he does. I don't lose anything, and I get a nice insurance policy just in case." It made me lul cause if you look at what many religions teach, it's true.
An omnipotent god could easily tell if you are religious solely to avoid hell, and send you to hell anyways. Your mental freedom to a magical man in the sky whom you have no evidence of existing is what you lose.
Yes I'm fun at parties.
Lol, you ignore other details to promote your own agenda. I think you'd make a perfect politician. Should run for president bro. Actually, your country should vote for the Canada Party. Canada Party op and should be voted president. Then Canada will wear the pants in this relationship instead of you wearing the hat. ;)
Quote from: T-Rok on February 04, 2012, 02:28:16 PM
My friend who was atheist told me this today. "I was atheist until I figured, what's the harm in thinking that God exists just in case he does. I don't lose anything, and I get a nice insurance policy just in case." It made me lul cause if you look at what many religions teach, it's true.
This is called Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager) and it's completely fallacious.
This video does a very good job of talking about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU
Quote from: Mystery on February 04, 2012, 03:08:39 PM
Quote from: T-Rok on February 04, 2012, 02:28:16 PM
My friend who was atheist told me this today. "I was atheist until I figured, what's the harm in thinking that God exists just in case he does. I don't lose anything, and I get a nice insurance policy just in case." It made me lul cause if you look at what many religions teach, it's true.
This is called Pascal's Wager (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal%27s_Wager) and it's completely fallacious.
This video does a very good job of talking about it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fZpJ7yUPwdU
Oh sweet. I didn't know it was an actual thing. Thanks for that.
Quote from: TANK on February 04, 2012, 01:39:20 PM
what would we call him then our creator, its pretty much the same thing. Who knows maybe he made it so things could spiral out of control and we could make our own decisions on purpose. Maybe he wanted us to live a free life where nothing is predetermined and we can evolve based on whatever random chaos he implemented, and maybe in a higher state of mind above ours that is omnipotent. We can form our own destiny based on what hes given us, and i think thats how it was intended to be. Hell maybe god created the planet and expected life but something intelligent came of it and completely surprised him. Maybe thats when he sent jesus down to set down some morals, or we just developed our good will and senses on our own because were social creatures. These kinds of things will never be solved, and even if you prove the bible is complete malarky it will never disprove that we dont have a god, so all this atheism ranting and arguing really gets anyone nowhere besides maybe making people doubt there faith that has provided a strong backbone and good will towards others. Really if half of some of the religious people realized that when we died there would be no consequences in hell and the only place we would get served is on earth there would be alot more abortions and alot more violence i think.
Being unable to disprove God does not mean we should believe in him. I cannot disprove the existence of invisible gremlins that steal my socks, but that doesn't mean they exist. It's time you read a little bit about burden of proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof).
Also, if religious people found out there was no after life, there would be
less violence, not more. People tend to take life more seriously when they realize there's no respawn.
Quote from: TANK on February 04, 2012, 02:25:54 PM
i like the christian ranting and arguing better than athiest. Thats just because ide like to believe theres a god, an atheists point of veiw to me is depressing (just my op though, maybe to some people the thought of not knowing and understanding everything is depressing). I do agree that if people are good or not depends mostly on there chemistry, life experiences, and maybe how they were raised, but im sure some potentially bad people find religion and it gives them just the push they need.
That's the difference between me and you. I believe things based on logic, not on what I want to believe. My life was much better when I was an ignorant, happy, christian. Sure, I got mad at myself everytime I masturbated, but life was easier with an insurance policy. Now I don't have that, and it's scary, but it's better than living a lie. I know what it's like to debate on the side of religion, but you're doing it wrong. Your arguments are not new, they're not valid, and they're painfully misguided.
Quote from: T-Rok on February 04, 2012, 02:56:31 PM
Quote from: Yankyal on February 04, 2012, 02:51:13 PM
Quote from: T-Rok on February 04, 2012, 02:28:16 PM
My friend who was atheist told me this today. "I was atheist until I figured, what's the harm in thinking that God exists just in case he does. I don't lose anything, and I get a nice insurance policy just in case." It made me lul cause if you look at what many religions teach, it's true.
An omnipotent god could easily tell if you are religious solely to avoid hell, and send you to hell anyways. Your mental freedom to a magical man in the sky whom you have no evidence of existing is what you lose.
Yes I'm fun at parties.
Lol, you ignore other details to promote your own agenda. I think you'd make a perfect politician. Should run for president bro. Actually, your country should vote for the Canada Party. Canada Party op and should be voted president. Then Canada will wear the pants in this relationship instead of you wearing the hat. ;)
What details did I ignore?
Quote from: Jake on February 04, 2012, 06:03:20 PM
Quote from: TANK on February 04, 2012, 01:39:20 PM
what would we call him then our creator, its pretty much the same thing. Who knows maybe he made it so things could spiral out of control and we could make our own decisions on purpose. Maybe he wanted us to live a free life where nothing is predetermined and we can evolve based on whatever random chaos he implemented, and maybe in a higher state of mind above ours that is omnipotent. We can form our own destiny based on what hes given us, and i think thats how it was intended to be. Hell maybe god created the planet and expected life but something intelligent came of it and completely surprised him. Maybe thats when he sent jesus down to set down some morals, or we just developed our good will and senses on our own because were social creatures. These kinds of things will never be solved, and even if you prove the bible is complete malarky it will never disprove that we dont have a god, so all this atheism ranting and arguing really gets anyone nowhere besides maybe making people doubt there faith that has provided a strong backbone and good will towards others. Really if half of some of the religious people realized that when we died there would be no consequences in hell and the only place we would get served is on earth there would be alot more abortions and alot more violence i think.
Being unable to disprove God does not mean we should believe in him. I cannot disprove the existence of invisible gremlins that steal my socks, but that doesn't mean they exist. It's time you read a little bit about burden of proof (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophic_burden_of_proof).
Also, if religious people found out there was no after life, there would be less violence, not more. People tend to take life more seriously when they realize there's no respawn.
Quote from: TANK on February 04, 2012, 02:25:54 PM
i like the christian ranting and arguing better than athiest. Thats just because ide like to believe theres a god, an atheists point of veiw to me is depressing (just my op though, maybe to some people the thought of not knowing and understanding everything is depressing). I do agree that if people are good or not depends mostly on there chemistry, life experiences, and maybe how they were raised, but im sure some potentially bad people find religion and it gives them just the push they need.
That's the difference between me and you. I believe things based on logic, not on what I want to believe. My life was much better when I was an ignorant, happy, christian. Sure, I got mad at myself everytime I masturbated, but life was easier with an insurance policy. Now I don't have that, and it's scary, but it's better than living a lie. I know what it's like to debate on the side of religion, but you're doing it wrong. Your arguments are not new, they're not valid, and they're painfully misguided.
Im not saying you need to believe in him either, i just dont see the point of arguing about it if we cant prove anything besides that the bible was wrong :(. Sorry that im not good at defending religion, sorry there not new arguments either this is just how ive thought for most of my life. I would rather live in a world where i believed there was a being who cared enough to create us then the dark thought thats theres nothing after we die and we were formed just by random chaos and thats how the universe has always been. If it is then i guess ill find out, or wont find out, when im rotting in the ground, but until then i like to be optimistic.
Quote from: TANK on February 04, 2012, 08:46:01 PM
Im not saying you need to believe in him either, i just dont see the point of arguing about it if we cant prove anything besides that the bible was wrong :(. Sorry that im not good at defending religion, sorry there not new arguments either this is just how ive thought for most of my life. I would rather live in a world where i believed there was a being who cared enough to create us then the dark thought thats theres nothing after we die and we were formed just by random chaos and thats how the universe has always been. If it is then i guess ill find out, or wont find out, when im rotting in the ground, but until then i like to be optimistic.
Ignorance is bliss.
Quote from: Celson on February 04, 2012, 09:11:38 PM
Quote from: TANK on February 04, 2012, 08:46:01 PM
Im not saying you need to believe in him either, i just dont see the point of arguing about it if we cant prove anything besides that the bible was wrong :(. Sorry that im not good at defending religion, sorry there not new arguments either this is just how ive thought for most of my life. I would rather live in a world where i believed there was a being who cared enough to create us then the dark thought thats theres nothing after we die and we were formed just by random chaos and thats how the universe has always been. If it is then i guess ill find out, or wont find out, when im rotting in the ground, but until then i like to be optimistic.
Ignorance is bliss.
Ignorance is like being continuously drunk and being knowledgeable is like being firmly sober. One's happy but has less quality of life and perspective, the other can lean towards slight depression in certain situation.
i dont get it, so if ones happy and is living a good life believes in god and is doing just fine in the world, he has less quality of life, and less perspective? If you guys can live with being atheists, you know thinking you're on top, you think you understand the world and its making you tougher or something and your not living a "lie" then good on you, but dont bag on people who arent and are doing just fine. When the day comes im on my death bed ide rather be "ignorant" and die happy then be depressed knowing that worms are gonna be !@#$ing eachother in my brain and thats my bodys eternity. Dont worry you guys you wont be fooled by silly gods and religion like me. you are top thinkers and will probably be thinking about how you bettered the earth by blabbing around about how theres no god when your about to die.
Figured I'd throw out my opinion on this.
In all honesty I don't really think on this stuff anymore. It may make me look ignorant, but I used to wonder about this stuff all the time.
In the end I've realized that there is no point speculating on any of this, because no matter what I think, its not gonna to change how it actually is.
I'd say I'm agnostic in that I believe there is something bigger than us out there, but thats about it.
Quote from: TANK on February 04, 2012, 10:19:21 PM
i dont get it, so if ones happy and is living a good life believes in god and is doing just fine in the world, he has less quality of life, and less perspective? If you guys can live with being atheists, you know thinking you're on top, you think you understand the world and its making you tougher or something and your not living a "lie" then good on you, but dont bag on people who arent and are doing just fine. When the day comes im on my death bed ide rather be "ignorant" and die happy then be depressed knowing that worms are gonna be !@#$ing eachother in my brain and thats my bodys eternity. Dont worry you guys you wont be fooled by silly gods and religion like me. you are top thinkers and will probably be thinking about how you bettered the earth by blabbing around about how theres no god when your about to die.
We don't understand the world. We don't understand why we exist. We have no idea what's going to happen after we die. Logically, we can probably conclude that we will cease to exist, but even that is uncertain. You have this false perception that atheists think they know everything. I only claim that I don't find enough evidence to support the existence of God. Any other assumptions you make about me or other atheists is a total lie based on fear. You're afraid of the truth, because the truth is scary. So what do you do? You attack anything that resembles the truth so that you can continue living in your made up world. This isn't elementary school. I'm not going to sugar coat my beliefs so as not to scare you away. This is a debate topic, and I've shared some of my beliefs on religion. If you can't handle it, maybe you need to take a break from debating points that you clearly aren't willing to look at in a non-biased way.
If you haven't noticed, everybody in this thread has been very respectful. There are christians, atheists, agnostics, mormans, and people with many other beliefs participating in this thread without losing their temper because somebody has challenged their viewpoint. If you really want the truth, you need to acknowledge somebody's argument, understand where they're coming from, and if you still disagree with it, attempt to rebuttal. Spewing the same jargon over and over,
after you're shown that it's not even close to resembling a logical viewpoint is exactly the reason why I don't debate much anymore. I've been putting up with you because I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt and want you to take something away from our discussion, even if it's some tips on forming a grammatically coherent sentence, but now you've taken it upon yourself to start insulting our beliefs because they don't resemble the sunshine filtered view you want out of the world. Guess what? You can't filter reality. Keep pretending the train isn't coming but don't blame me for taking one last look at the sky before we're both flattened.
sorry i shouldnt have spouted off like that on you guys. I have taken a couple things away from this and its that i think ide rather keep my sunshine daisy reality, you guys enjoy your bleak depressing one, ill be having a tea party on the train tracks. I think ill leave you guys and the debate alone from now on. I knew i shouldnt have posted because normally i cant find people with the same veiws as me on religion and such whereever i go. I also dont take arguing well, maybe im a little slow in the head, or maybe im just ignorant. Thanks for giving me the benifit of the doubt jake.
Quote from: TANK on February 05, 2012, 12:27:08 AM
ill be having a tea party on the train tracks.
Haha, I actually laughed at that one.
Quote from: Titan on February 04, 2012, 10:33:21 PM
Figured I'd throw out my opinion on this.
In all honesty I don't really think on this stuff anymore. It may make me look ignorant, but I used to wonder about this stuff all the time.
In the end I've realized that there is no point speculating on any of this, because no matter what I think, its not gonna to change how it actually is.
I'd say I'm agnostic in that I believe there is something bigger than us out there, but thats about it.
Why do you believe there is something bigger than us? I always hear people say they don't believe in a specific religion but have the idea that there's a god.
Quote from: TANK on February 04, 2012, 10:19:21 PM
i dont get it, so if ones happy and is living a good life believes in god and is doing just fine in the world, he has less quality of life, and less perspective? If you guys can live with being atheists, you know thinking you're on top, you think you understand the world and its making you tougher or something and your not living a "lie" then good on you, but dont bag on people who arent and are doing just fine. When the day comes im on my death bed ide rather be "ignorant" and die happy then be depressed knowing that worms are gonna be !@#$ing eachother in my brain and thats my bodys eternity. Dont worry you guys you wont be fooled by silly gods and religion like me. you are top thinkers and will probably be thinking about how you bettered the earth by blabbing around about how theres no god when your about to die.
You misunderstood me. That only applies to those who haven't thought about their religion whatsoever.
If you take the time to think about things and think you have a good understanding(and still have a reason to believe), then you're not ignorant.
And despite the odds being
overwhelmingly against them chance-wise, there is ALWAYS a possibility that they are correct. Some ones more than others.
Jake summarized the rest.
Quote from: Jake on February 05, 2012, 12:11:29 AM
We don't understand the world. We don't understand why we exist. We have no idea what's going to happen after we die.
I don't really believe in why but just how. And what is it to understand? As some level we "don't know" everything.
Quote from: Yankyal on February 05, 2012, 10:08:32 AM
Quote from: Titan on February 04, 2012, 10:33:21 PM
Figured I'd throw out my opinion on this.
In all honesty I don't really think on this stuff anymore. It may make me look ignorant, but I used to wonder about this stuff all the time.
In the end I've realized that there is no point speculating on any of this, because no matter what I think, its not gonna to change how it actually is.
I'd say I'm agnostic in that I believe there is something bigger than us out there, but thats about it.
Why do you believe there is something bigger than us? I always hear people say they don't believe in a specific religion but have the idea that there's a god.
Its just a feeling I've always had. I'm not saying that there is a god out there, just something bigger.
Quote from: Titan on February 05, 2012, 12:17:12 PM
Quote from: Yankyal on February 05, 2012, 10:08:32 AM
Quote from: Titan on February 04, 2012, 10:33:21 PM
Figured I'd throw out my opinion on this.
In all honesty I don't really think on this stuff anymore. It may make me look ignorant, but I used to wonder about this stuff all the time.
In the end I've realized that there is no point speculating on any of this, because no matter what I think, its not gonna to change how it actually is.
I'd say I'm agnostic in that I believe there is something bigger than us out there, but thats about it.
Why do you believe there is something bigger than us? I always hear people say they don't believe in a specific religion but have the idea that there's a god.
Its just a feeling I've always had. I'm not saying that there is a god out there, just something bigger.
Do you base any decisions on it? Has it affected your life in any way?
Quote from: Yankyal on February 05, 2012, 01:02:52 PM
Quote from: Titan on February 05, 2012, 12:17:12 PM
Quote from: Yankyal on February 05, 2012, 10:08:32 AM
Quote from: Titan on February 04, 2012, 10:33:21 PM
Figured I'd throw out my opinion on this.
In all honesty I don't really think on this stuff anymore. It may make me look ignorant, but I used to wonder about this stuff all the time.
In the end I've realized that there is no point speculating on any of this, because no matter what I think, its not gonna to change how it actually is.
I'd say I'm agnostic in that I believe there is something bigger than us out there, but thats about it.
Why do you believe there is something bigger than us? I always hear people say they don't believe in a specific religion but have the idea that there's a god.
Its just a feeling I've always had. I'm not saying that there is a god out there, just something bigger.
Do you base any decisions on it? Has it affected your life in any way?
Not at all, I find that its quite easy to life however I want. And as for affecting my life, thats also really another no.
Quote from: Jake on February 05, 2012, 12:11:29 AMGuess what? You can't filter reality.
Yea, sure you can. Reality is what you make of it.
I wanted to get back to the discussion of God. It seemed that a few people were making the point that if God exists, and God allows bad things to happen in the world, then God is inherantly imperfect. This isn't really a logical assumption. Just playing devil's advocate here since I don't necessarily believe in this viewpoint, but based on the view of the Judeo-Christian God, free will is a major point to this discussion. Basically look at it this way: If God exists, and God made humans only do good things, then God is inherantly imperfect.
Now I don't particularly think God is "perfect" but I definitely think a universe with free will is a "better" universe than one with no evil. Better in the sense that it has more meaning. A "perfect" universe with no evil has absolutely no point. And this gets down to some of my beliefs on the potential of a meta-physical reality. I don't believe that there is necessarily a God, or that there is something "bigger", but we definitely all have the ability to perceive any number of posibilities in relation to this. In other words, reality is what we make of it. Which is kind of to the core of my beliefs on this topic. We can perceive the world to be made of numbers, facts, what we can show evidence for. We can also look beyond or around these things and choose to see all sorts of possibilities. They are not necessarily true or untrue, it just is what it is.
Quote from: Lingus on February 13, 2012, 02:48:02 PM
Quote from: Jake on February 05, 2012, 12:11:29 AMGuess what? You can't filter reality.
Yea, sure you can. Reality is what you make of it.
You can filter reality, yes. It doesn't change the fact that your filtered version of reality is inaccurate in comparison to the actual reality.
Quote from: Lingus on February 13, 2012, 02:48:02 PM
I wanted to get back to the discussion of God. It seemed that a few people were making the point that if God exists, and God allows bad things to happen in the world, then God is inherantly imperfect. This isn't really a logical assumption. Just playing devil's advocate here since I don't necessarily believe in this viewpoint, but based on the view of the Judeo-Christian God, free will is a major point to this discussion. Basically look at it this way: If God exists, and God made humans only do good things, then God is inherantly imperfect.
Now I don't particularly think God is "perfect" but I definitely think a universe with free will is a "better" universe than one with no evil.
If I was forced to be a god like the Judeo-Christian one minus the gigantic conglomerate of evil, pettiness, and contradictions, and for some reason I chose to make a limited universe like ours, I would set my people in a world where only lessons-to-be-learned things would happen which were not my fault that were detrimental to daily life(like being careful not to spill milk, not intentionally hurting others, etc.) and get rid of everything like disease, war, torture, and famine. I would also give people the option to age, die, or anything else they wanted. I wouldn't demand worship as I would think it'd be dumb, as God, I wouldn't care. If someone WANTED to, they could although I'd think it's completely unnecessary. Personally speaking, it would really scare me.
I'm not asking for no evil. Evil needs to exist in order for good to exist, because without either as a frame of reference, both lose their meaning. I'm asking for highly restrained evil to the point where it no longer harms anything.
THAT is free will.
In THIS universe, however, you either accept God and go to heaven or you go to hell. Seeing as pretty much everyone doesn't want to go to hell seeing as
absolutely nothing warrants eternal punishment, this is an unbelievably laughable 'choice' God gave us.
It would be like someone robbing your house, (putting you in a convoluted crappy situation, like our supposed shambles of a creation) putting a gun to your head and giving you the option to either not tell anyone it happened and live, or die on the spot. That's a choice. It's free will! Gee, what an infinitely kind and loving guy this must be!
Except that in this case the robber is supposedly omnipotent, omniscient, and all-loving, and the two options are what amounts to living in an emotionally warped police state spending your time worshiping the robber for eternity, or eternal punishment in a fiery, demented hellhole.
AND the robber was our creator.
(http://upload.slightlymore.co.uk/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/93a29064_Slow-Clap.gif)
Well if you think about the good and evil concept, its completely based off the persons perspective on the subject. So really, Good and Evil is a non-existant figure, and is a humane representation of ones opinion on a subject. And as for free will of subjects, Well if good is omnipotent then he knows our past, present and future. If the future is then decided, where is our free will? Also Christianity follows the Bible, which has tons of rules and thing to follow, otherwise if you don't you will spend eternity in damnation. So there isn't much free will in there now is there?
Just as something interesting to bring to the topic. There are 3 videos that you may find interesting in the subject. You may ignore the video title if you want, but they have some good information there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvnuVWakVkc&list=LLdIsL5mSnclBtbAPTD1e8Jw&index=2&feature=plpp_video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OhTgDuRxEUM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2pU2FHj2Iw&feature=related
Just because you don't like your choices doesn't mean you don't have them. The whole point of free will is that you can anything regardless of the outcome. It's not about having your decisions guided by the pressure you feel from religion, society, etc... That doesn't mean it's not free will. You can still say eff it and do whatever.
Of course, what Mystery seems to be saying is that free will, in an ideal universe, would be something that made choosing what you want to do easy. But I can argue that in that scenario we're being guided at some level, and regardless of which way you are being guided, towards something you want or away from it, it's as free as you're going to get. The problem I have with that kind of scenario is that a universe with no consequences, one where we can choose to do whatever we want without fear of injury, pain, death, or any negative reaction what-so-ever, is as equally useless as one without free will.
I should point out that this isn't coming from a viewpoint of religion. I'm not religious really. I'm not saying that there needs to be a heaven and hell, or people can't sin without fear of God, or anything like that. I'm really more saying that there needs to be cause and effect. Nothing would make sense without it. If I go around calling everyone bitches, I should get slapped in the face. That's just the way it is.
Quote from: Lingus on February 14, 2012, 01:51:59 PM
Just because you don't like your choices doesn't mean you don't have them. The whole point of free will is that you can anything regardless of the outcome. It's not about having your decisions guided by the pressure you feel from religion, society, etc... That doesn't mean it's not free will. You can still say eff it and do whatever.
Yes, free will is a choice. My point was that in the context of that option being given by a supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving god that it was total bollocks because no loving being would ever give anyone such a horrible choice. As it is with a robber about to shoot you. It's a choice, and you have the option to die, but I'd bet you wouldn't be willing to take that option.
Quote from: Lingus on February 14, 2012, 01:51:59 PM
Of course, what Mystery seems to be saying is that free will, in an ideal universe, would be something that made choosing what you want to do easy. But I can argue that in that scenario we're being guided at some level, and regardless of which way you are being guided, towards something you want or away from it, it's as free as you're going to get. The problem I have with that kind of scenario is that a universe with no consequences, one where we can choose to do whatever we want without fear of injury, pain, death, or any negative reaction what-so-ever, is as equally useless as one without free will.
I didn't convey my message well enough then.
It wouldn't necessarily be an easy choice, but the consequences of what would happen(naturally, not with me doing anything, and I make no claims of omnipotence) if bad things(wars, etc.) continued to occur would be made known. People wouldn't want things like that to happen.
I would give people the option to do things like that, but with people knowing the better option is to not hurt each other(and these theoretical people WOULD be able to stop threats nonviolently), they would continue living their lives.
The theoretical universe WOULD have the option to incite hunger and the like in a person if they wanted to, but if humans were given the option to never be able to starve, I should think they would choose to. Normal bad things are still present as ever. The bad things are not gone, people are just not prone to causing them themselves and are very capable of damage control if somehow I allowed a plague to creep over those who didn't want it, or the like.
Here, the bad stuff happens to everyone when they did nothing to deserve it(and I would argue beyond temporary confinement to prevent it from happening again and good correctional therapy, nothing bad should happen to those who do extraordinary bad things, like Pol Pot and the rest of the motley crew). Very bad things. Cruel things. If there was any omnipotent being in the context of the situation, he would be, by definition, allowing those things to happen.
Quote from: Lingus on February 14, 2012, 01:51:59 PM
I should point out that this isn't coming from a viewpoint of religion. I'm not religious really. I'm not saying that there needs to be a heaven and hell, or people can't sin without fear of God, or anything like that. I'm really more saying that there needs to be cause and effect. Nothing would make sense without it. If I go around calling everyone bitches, I should get slapped in the face. That's just the way it is.
There does need to be cause and effect. But because this is a good theoretical world, nothing beyond what I said earlier would happen to those who caused something.
It goes without saying that I think the death penalty for someone, unless they WANT it and are making a rational decision, should
never be carried out.
The gist of what you seem to be conveying is that if there's an omnipotent god, it must be a dick to have made the universe the way it is. I think that's potentially one option. Another option would be that the omnipotent god is a loving god, but has more knowledge than we do about events. It would know that by having certain things occur that overall more people will go to heaven, or some such equivilant (in other words, the "god has a plan" theory). And finally, the omnipotent god could just be indifferent.
Of these three possible options, I personally think the indifferent god is the most likely. Most people have this vision of a god sitting up in heaven on his throne, waiting for everyone to show up so he can give them ultra-hugs forever. That, or some kind of insidious being raining fire and brimstone down on the tiny little peons of earth. I really don't even see god as a being. If anything, it is a force.
Ultimately, Mystery, what we're doing when we theorise about god and the universe, we're trying to come up with a way of understanding what is going on around us. So if your scenario of an angry god helps you understand things better, then by all means. Although, if all it does is make you bitter and angry, then I really don't see much point in it. There's plenty of other ways to see the universe. We've only been talking about possibilities that include an omnipotent god. There may also not be a god at all. This is a much better way to look at the world than believing there is some angry god that has it out for us all.
Quote from: Lingus on February 15, 2012, 03:19:31 PM
Another option would be that the omnipotent god is a loving god, but has more knowledge than we do about events. It would know that by having certain things occur that overall more people will go to heaven, or some such equivilant (in other words, the "god has a plan" theory).
Except God makes the rules on who goes to heaven and who doesn't. There isn't any reason why he can't just nix eternal suffering(which he decided to make a special place for and set it to be the 'default' place where people go after death)and let everyone who wants to go to heaven go to heaven. No extraordinary convoluted 'plan', no matter how perfect and divine and how 'good' it may be, changes the fact he is sending people to hell and causing bad things to happen.
Quote from: Lingus on February 15, 2012, 03:19:31 PM
And finally, the omnipotent god could just be indifferent.
Yes, that is a possibility. But I personally feel that an indifferent god would've put us in a better situation than the Judeo-Christian god.
Not to mention the things he does which are too nasty and spiteful to really be classified as the work of an indifferent person.
Quote from: Lingus on February 15, 2012, 03:19:31 PM
Of these three possible options, I personally think the indifferent god is the most likely. Most people have this vision of a god sitting up in heaven on his throne, waiting for everyone to show up so he can give them ultra-hugs forever. That, or some kind of insidious being raining fire and brimstone down on the tiny little peons of earth. I really don't even see god as a being. If anything, it is a force.
The only reason I talk about this kind of god so much is because it's the one with the most followers. I always prefer thinking of potential 'gods' in other ways.
Quote from: Lingus on February 15, 2012, 03:19:31 PM
Ultimately, Mystery, what we're doing when we theorise about god and the universe, we're trying to come up with a way of understanding what is going on around us. So if your scenario of an angry god helps you understand things better, then by all means. Although, if all it does is make you bitter and angry, then I really don't see much point in it. There's plenty of other ways to see the universe. We've only been talking about possibilities that include an omnipotent god. There may also not be a god at all. This is a much better way to look at the world than believing there is some angry god that has it out for us all.
I know that. I don't have any problem with that. I look at the world in many ways.
It's just that I've taken the time to learn as much about the world's religions and beliefs as possible to try to understand other people's point of view. In some cases, I can see why people think they way they do, though I don't agree with them.
But with Christianity in particular, after reading the Bible several times and looking at various scriptures and getting the same exact message each time, I don't see how the God of that religion can be anything but the most wrathful and evil being ever created.
You have to keep in mind that when I first read it, I was 6. I didn't consider myself anything. I was constantly talked to by kids about why I never went to church and they told me a bit about their god and kept prodding me 'to become Christian', beyond that, I didn't know much about the concept of religion as a whole.
When I read it, I couldn't stop crying for the entire night. My mind was churning out confused thoughts like "why would this happen" and so forth. Particularly the part where God tells Noah to build the Ark and then proceeds to wipe out the entire planet. I couldn't see why anyone would like that god, much less worship him for their whole life.
To this day, I STILL don't see why anyone would read the Bible and like it or think "God is good" after finishing it. I know people do, it's just mind-boggling to me. I'd
really like someone to try and explain why they like the Bible.
The reason why I hate the god of Christianity so much is because of what the Gospel and Scripture says about him, and because of how he supposedly handled this universe and what it is now.
Conversely, you never see Satan doing anything beyond rebelling for a good reason and making bets with God. All the descriptions that are used to demonize him could easily be attributed to a massive propaganda scheme.
By the way. I think the Jewish god is more of a dick than the Christian god. A lot of the stuff you're talking about happened in the Old Testament, which in turn is taken from the books of Judaism. Plus there's all sorts of stuff in the Torah and the other Jewish books that are pretty damn awful as well. But, the good thing about Judaism is that there's always interpretation. Depending on the Rabbi you speak with you might get a different interpretation. From what I can tell, for the most part, the literal interpretation is very rarely used. So ultimately, what you have is a religion focused on trying to determine what their holy scripture is trying to tell them about how they should live their lives. Of course, a lot of the stuff in those scriptures are horribly outdated. So you end up with a bunch of rules that eventually people work out loopholes in order to work around.
I dunno. The whole organized religion thing is just sort of pointless. I guess what I don't get here is, if you're so against this view of god, or if it bothers you so much, why not focus on creating a view of the world that is more acceptable? Since the judeo-christian god is one of an infinite number of possibilities, why not just take it for what it's worth and move on? Yes, a lot of people believe in it. Does that have to matter? The number of people that believe in something doesn't change its likelyhood. You know it's not any more likely than any other possibility. You also know that there's no way to prove one way or the other. So in effect, you can choose to disregard that possibility being that it is so unacceptable to you.
Quote from: Lingus on February 15, 2012, 08:35:38 PM
By the way. I think the Jewish god is more of a dick than the Christian god. A lot of the stuff you're talking about happened in the Old Testament, which in turn is taken from the books of Judaism. Plus there's all sorts of stuff in the Torah and the other Jewish books that are pretty damn awful as well. But, the good thing about Judaism is that there's always interpretation. Depending on the Rabbi you speak with you might get a different interpretation. From what I can tell, for the most part, the literal interpretation is very rarely used. So ultimately, what you have is a religion focused on trying to determine what their holy scripture is trying to tell them about how they should live their lives. Of course, a lot of the stuff in those scriptures are horribly outdated. So you end up with a bunch of rules that eventually people work out loopholes in order to work around.
I dunno. The whole organized religion thing is just sort of pointless. I guess what I don't get here is, if you're so against this view of god, or if it bothers you so much, why not focus on creating a view of the world that is more acceptable? Since the judeo-christian god is one of an infinite number of possibilities, why not just take it for what it's worth and move on? Yes, a lot of people believe in it. Does that have to matter? The number of people that believe in something doesn't change its likelyhood. You know it's not any more likely than any other possibility. You also know that there's no way to prove one way or the other. So in effect, you can choose to disregard that possibility being that it is so unacceptable to you.
Because in some places if "you take it for what it's worth and move on" you are ostracized or even killed.
Quote from: Lingus on February 15, 2012, 08:35:38 PM
A lot of the stuff you're talking about happened in the Old Testament, which in turn is taken from the books of Judaism.
I know that. I have also read the Tanakh several times as well as a good chunk of Jewish scripture.
The problem with thinking Yahweh is as bad as his Christian counterpart is how evolved Judaism is with its interpretations and its people. I think Yahweh is a dick and a horrible being, but nowhere near as much as the Godhead himself.
Despite the Old Testament being taken from Judaism, it plays essentially no part in the religion. Excluding a spattering of mainly ultra-Orthodox Jewish people, practically no Jewish person believes in Hell, only a purification period before entering Heaven, or not entering Heaven if you wish not to(the amount is very proportionally small compared to Christianity and Islam). The Tanakh can also be said to be extremely flawed and horrific if taken literally, even rabbis and the main interpreters say this. I'd STILL say the Christian Bible and Christian scripture is worse than it and Jewish scripture.
Quote from: Lingus on February 15, 2012, 08:35:38 PM
But, the good thing about Judaism is that there's always interpretation. Depending on the Rabbi you speak with you might get a different interpretation. From what I can tell, for the most part, the literal interpretation is very rarely used. So ultimately, what you have is a religion focused on trying to determine what their holy scripture is trying to tell them about how they should live their lives. Of course, a lot of the stuff in those scriptures are horribly outdated. So you end up with a bunch of rules that eventually people work out loopholes in order to work around.
I agree wholeheartedly. There is also a bending of what exists to fit the agenda of those who are trying to persuade people of the 'truth' of Judaism, like in the other Abrahamic religions(and pretty much every single religion ever).
Quote from: Lingus on February 15, 2012, 08:35:38 PM
I guess what I don't get here is, if you're so against this view of god, or if it bothers you so much, why not focus on creating a view of the world that is more acceptable? Since the judeo-christian god is one of an infinite number of possibilities, why not just take it for what it's worth and move on? Yes, a lot of people believe in it. Does that have to matter?
I do focus on creating a view of the world of the world that is more accessible.
Since the Judeo-Christian god is one of an infinite number of possibilities, I do take it for what it's worth(to say nothing of its value..) and move on.
A lot of people believe in it, and THAT is what matters.
Why?
Because I have to deal with people who constantly try to evangelize me, people in power who are trying to impose Christianity-driven laws in place and SUCCEEDING WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE POPULACE, Christian laws already in place, complete ignorance, people with the inability to think about their religion or religious ways at all (and that winds up affecting others negatively), fundamentalists, rampant anti-intellectualism, people trying to get rid of the separation of church and state, people who think I'm going to burn in hell because I'm atheist and trying to treat my being atheist badly, complete child indoctrination from the VAST majority of the people who are Christian(from those who are fundamentalist to moderate to light), people who completely ignore the negative aspects of their religion, people pushing for the condemnation of an entire sexuality, people who harass non-Christians, people wishing to kill atheists or even wipe them off the face of the planet(and don't tell me plenty of those people don't exist, not even in the USA, because they do), people who blindly defend religiousness, people who don't read into their religion at all, crazy religious-induced crimes, a higher rate of crimes overall(Christianity correlates very much with crime as a whole, in comparison atheists comprise >0.2% of prison cells), people who attribute everything to God blindly, people who thank God for everything while ignoring what people did and what THEY did themselves(those countless graduates who worked their ass off, then thanking their religious figure when religion did diddly-squat towards their success), opposition to progress(I REALLY wish I was born in a time in the future before mankind screws itself over), removal of progress, people who want to forcibly spread their religion across the globe, over-optimism, people who think everything has INHERENT meaning, and those who know the only reason they have their particular religion is because of their parents, but don't bother changing it or looking at other ways of life just because.
And that's only off the top of my head. If I was given time, I could add at least another Microsoft Word page to that.
And like I said,
Quote from: MysteryI couldn't see why anyone would like that god, much less worship him for their whole life.
To this day, I STILL don't see why anyone would read the Bible and like it or think "God is good" after finishing it. I know people do, it's just mind-boggling to me. I'd really like someone to try and explain why they like the Bible.
Or even just God and Jesus themselves. WHY like them when they've done all of these horrible things and when they are completely incompetent at controlling, repairing and constructing a universe? God the Father much more so than Jesus, but although I can't really find that much fault with Jesus, he still was nowhere near a complete saint.
Well, yea. That's certainly fair to say that you are upset by the people who do those things. I still don't agree that it's wrong to believe in that god. I admit that a lot (a lot) of people that believe in that god do a lot of those horrible things. But trying to get them to change their belief in that god is as wrong as the people who try to get you to change yours. It's not their belief that makes them wrong. It's the negative actions that they take against others. The religion or belief itself is hardly the problem. It's never the problem. It's always the people that twist the belief into horrible actions against others that is the problem.
Quote from: Lingus on February 16, 2012, 08:48:15 PM
Well, yea. That's certainly fair to say that you are upset by the people who do those things. I still don't agree that it's wrong to believe in that god. I admit that a lot (a lot) of people that believe in that god do a lot of those horrible things. But trying to get them to change their belief in that god is as wrong as the people who try to get you to change yours. It's not their belief that makes them wrong. It's the negative actions that they take against others. The religion or belief itself is hardly the problem. It's never the problem. It's always the people that twist the belief into horrible actions against others that is the problem.
I think I'm not conveying my message properly, or you're not getting it.
That wasn't me saying why it's wrong to believe. I don't and can't think it's wrong for anyone to believe anything, that would be wrong in and of itself. I was saying why I had that view of that god and why I deal with that particular version so often in things like debates.
I don't try to get them to change their beliefs in gods. The only thing I want to get them to do is at least think about it a bit, and since they'll eventually get to a point where they'll say they just have to have faith, that's fine, because ultimately that is the point where logic cannot come into play. And since the nature of everything is ultimately existential in that anything is possible, and that from a fully logical perspective, it's impossible to believe in anything of the sort, I view it as kind of a weak and necessary(for some) counterbalance to what is immediately around us.
I'm fine with religion as a theoretical whole and do not wish to see it go away ever, as elimination of a viewpoint is never a good thing.
I, do however, hate everything it's done to our planet as an actual whole and I think it's done more harm than good.
Twisting is certainly the main problem, yes. But it's impossible to ignore the literal things like stoning adulterers or never wearing mixed fibers.
I apologize if I ever came/come across as antitheistic; that is never my goal.
Fair enough. I feel like we've come to a point in this discussion where we're mainly talking about how you're coming across rather than talking about the topic itself. Plus I think I've made whatever point(s) I've intended to make. So with that in mind, I'll let the discussion continue as it will.
Bump because this picture is so worth the laugh:
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/426163_10101028428512918_10704890_61120459_1530946418_n.jpg)
Quote from: Scotty on March 15, 2012, 06:23:30 PM
Bump because this picture is so worth the laugh:
(http://sphotos.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/426163_10101028428512918_10704890_61120459_1530946418_n.jpg)
So tempted to print that out a billion times and tagging up WBC with it. I'm so sick of people like that.
Quote from: sayers6 on March 15, 2012, 07:18:16 PM
So tempted to print that out a billion times and tagging up WBC with it. I'm so sick of people like that.
too bad they have several bible scriptures to back up their hatred. the entire old testament is full of it.