People like this are disgusting. Honestly, who the hell would even think of something that cruel and inhuman to do to a inoccent helpless dog such as that? I hope they get thrown in jail. >:(
Here is the video, but do not watch if you think you can't bare to see such a cruel act. (Not sure if the dog survived or not, but it was alive when it hit the floor as you can see in the video)
http://www.ishatonu.com/2009/11/17/bridgethrow/
I just wanted to see what you guys thought. It really impacts you after watching. :'(
Good news, the man is caught and the dog survives! Makes you releaved after watching it. Thanks Titan for the link. :)
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1228987/Svajuna-Beniuk-The-man-threw-dog-bridge-posted-video-online-brought-justice-horrified-Internet-users.html
Yup, well not everyone shares your view on how animals should be treated. Gotta learn to agree to disagree sometimes.
Also they sound German, is that right?
That video was sad and disturbing... :-[
I'm not for animal rights and such, but I am against animal abuse. It's just disappointing that some people find that fun.
Really now? Did were really need this topic? They did it for attention and your giving them just that.
I'm not saying trowing dogs off bridges is a good thing. Its just not something people should be linking video around. First i don't want to see that. Second it might give other people the idea.
Quote from: Delicious on December 14, 2009, 11:06:29 PM
I just wanted to see what you guys thought. It really impacts you after watching. :'(
Humans know no bounds when it comes to committing sick and horrendous acts, both to their own species and to other, more helpless ones. The funny thing is that dog is just the tip of a very large iceberg. I would much rather, no, I would BEG to be that dog instead of other less fortunate creatures. Hell, I would even go so far as to say that dog had it good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4)
Edit:
QuoteFirst i don't want to see that.
Knowledge is infectious.
QuoteSecond it might give other people the idea.
Do you seriously believe throwing ANYTHING off a high place is something new and creative? You're discrediting the human race.
Quote from: Trogdor on December 14, 2009, 11:49:47 PM
Quote from: Delicious on December 14, 2009, 11:06:29 PM
I just wanted to see what you guys thought. It really impacts you after watching. :'(
Humans know no bounds when it comes to committing sick and horrendous acts, both to their own species and to other, more helpless ones. The funny thing is that dog is just the tip of a very large iceberg. I would much rather, no, I would BEG to be that dog instead of other less fortunate creatures. Hell, I would even go so far as to say that dog had it good.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VIjanhKqVC4)
Thats pretty terrible, but its not gonna stop me from eating meat. I do buy free range eggs and bacon though, so I don't think they suffered, much.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1228987/Svajuna-Beniuk-The-man-threw-dog-bridge-posted-video-online-brought-justice-horrified-Internet-users.html
Quote from: Titan on December 15, 2009, 12:28:54 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1228987/Svajuna-Beniuk-The-man-threw-dog-bridge-posted-video-online-brought-justice-horrified-Internet-users.html
Yay!!!!
Quote from: Titan on December 15, 2009, 12:28:54 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1228987/Svajuna-Beniuk-The-man-threw-dog-bridge-posted-video-online-brought-justice-horrified-Internet-users.html
good
They were just testing if dogs were effected by gravity...
I'm not sure what everyone is getting upset about...
Quote from: ARTgames on December 14, 2009, 11:49:28 PM
Really now? Did were really need this topic? They did it for attention and your giving them just that.
I'm not saying trowing dogs off bridges is a good thing. Its just not something people should be linking video around. First i don't want to see that. Second it might give other people the idea.
I wanted to share this video and gather others thoughts on the matter. I want us to discuss how you feel about animal cruelty. Having knowledge of this insadent does not mean we would go throw animals off bridges... Never asked you in specific to watch the video neither.
Getting the news about the young man being caught, we can also discuss what he deserves as a punishment for this hurrendous act.
Quote from: Titan on December 15, 2009, 12:28:54 AM
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1228987/Svajuna-Beniuk-The-man-threw-dog-bridge-posted-video-online-brought-justice-horrified-Internet-users.html
This is great news!
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
Getting the news about the young man being caught, we can also discuss what he deserves as a punishment for this hurrendous act.
If only they threw him off that same bridge as punishment. See if he survives...
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 01:44:34 AM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
Getting the news about the young man being caught, we can also discuss what he deserves as a punishment for this hurrendous act.
If only they threw him off that same bridge as punishment. See if he survives...
I'm Mr. Fedora and I approve this message. ;)
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 01:44:34 AM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
Getting the news about the young man being caught, we can also discuss what he deserves as a punishment for this hurrendous act.
If only they threw him off that same bridge as punishment. See if he survives...
Make sure cars are speeding by though.
It's odd how he did it because of the fact the dog killed some of his mother's chicks at his home or something
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 01:44:34 AM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
Getting the news about the young man being caught, we can also discuss what he deserves as a punishment for this hurrendous act.
If only they threw him off that same bridge as punishment. See if he survives...
I agree, while they do that throw this guy off too.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/father-throws-girl-to-death-from-melbourne-bridge-1519227.html (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/australasia/father-throws-girl-to-death-from-melbourne-bridge-1519227.html)
How would that survive its amazing, Wouldnt you think ited be in so much pain it might aswell be dead?
But it doesnt looks to bad so thats good :/
Anyways i hope thsi dude gets put away thats just cruel
LMAO At lucifers post :P
I regret that
EDIT:
Is it true that is survived, Since i just noticed the 50Foot part lol.
Read that link posted about how he was caught, it will answer all your questions.
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 01:44:34 AM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
Getting the news about the young man being caught, we can also discuss what he deserves as a punishment for this hurrendous act.
If only they threw him off that same bridge as punishment. See if he survives...
By that logic, people who eat meat should be eaten. Are you a vegetarian?
man this is really bad...
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:22:43 AM
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 01:44:34 AM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
Getting the news about the young man being caught, we can also discuss what he deserves as a punishment for this hurrendous act.
If only they threw him off that same bridge as punishment. See if he survives...
By that logic, people who eat meat should be eaten. Are you a vegetarian?
Are you seriously comparing eating meat to throwing a dog off a bridge? Get real. That comparison is just complete BS. I don't agree that he should be thrown from a bridge, he deserves to be in jail for a long time though. I'm glad the dog survived :)
I couldn't even watch the video.
Being a previous ASPCA volunteer, I feel sick.
This only proves my point that humans are frickin' idiots, and I hate every one of them. These wastes of daddy's sperm clearly didn't read about Abu-Ghraib in their world history class. I bet this little shit's friends pissed/crapped their pants when they heard that he was turning himself, wondering if they were next.
Someone else already nailed on the head. They did this for attention, nothing more, and what better/stupider way of going about doing that then posting a video of you doing in on the internet. Mom goes nuts because the dog killed some farm animals. Kid sees the opportunity to become well-known. Like every other idiot puke his age doesn't think it through, thinks he's a bad-ass, invincible, so to back his ego, he calls his friends, says "Hey guys, I'm about to go drop the family dog off a bridge! Can you take video of it, we'll all become famous!"
:o... Pathetic kids, they should be !@#$ing pushed off a 50FT bridge.
PS; I love animals to death. :}
Its time like these you wish a vigilante would come in and shoot people like him.
Damn that's messed up =/
Quote from: Riserva on December 15, 2009, 11:23:25 AM
:o... Pathetic kids, they should be !@#$ing pushed off a 50FT bridge.
I would have to agree and disagree on that. It makes sense that he should experience the fear of plummeting to the ground and lying in agony, his body crumpled and broken. However, stooping to his level by pushing sentient beings off a bridge doesn't help the situation, no matter how justified. It takes compassion to really want the kid know exactly how it felt to the dog, but it takes even more not to wish that on anyone.
Quote from: Trogdor on December 15, 2009, 12:40:58 PM
Quote from: Riserva on December 15, 2009, 11:23:25 AM
:o... Pathetic kids, they should be !@#$ing pushed off a 50FT bridge.
I would have to agree and disagree on that. It makes sense that he should experience the fear of plummeting to the ground and lying in agony, his body crumpled and broken. However, stooping to his level by pushing sentient beings off a bridge doesn't help the situation, no matter how justified. It takes compassion to really want the kid know exactly how it felt to the dog, but it takes even more not to wish that on anyone.
How 'bout we forcibly neuter him so that he may never have children, then? :D
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:22:43 AM
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 01:44:34 AM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
Getting the news about the young man being caught, we can also discuss what he deserves as a punishment for this hurrendous act.
If only they threw him off that same bridge as punishment. See if he survives...
By that logic, people who eat meat should be eaten. Are you a vegetarian?
Yeah torch, that's kinda..Stupid.
The thing is, the dog was alive, not dead. Cooked meat doesn't have feelings, a living breathing thing does. I personally think they're being too soft with the dude who dropped the dog. A year in jail? Come on.
I know it's 'just a dog', but it IS a living, breathing animal. It can feel pain just like you. Just because it can't speak doesn't make it any lesser of an life form.
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:22:43 AM
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 01:44:34 AM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
Getting the news about the young man being caught, we can also discuss what he deserves as a punishment for this hurrendous act.
If only they threw him off that same bridge as punishment. See if he survives...
By that logic, people who eat meat should be eaten. Are you a vegetarian?
You're comparing apples to oranges.
With regards to the equal punishment. I would get some sort of pleasure out of seeing him plummet off a 50ft bridge. But would I be the executioner? No. He would die from a fall that distance (which makes me wonder how in the grace of God did that dog survive that height). On the other hand, to only receive one a one year prison sentence, that little shit got off lucky. I'd give him at least five. That way, he can meet all the other in-mates that are called Bubba who are dog enthusiasts. Make no mistake, prisoners have a set of morals. A good majority are family oriented, patriotic, and do love parts of life. Be it their daughters, mothers, dogs, etc... He will no doubt run into a man in the showers ready to swat the soap out of his grasp, much similar to the pedophile who is bunked with a man who has 3 daughters. He will receive the same "punishment" in prison, and that puts on a giant shit-eating grin on my face to know that.
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 15, 2009, 12:54:11 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:22:43 AM
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 01:44:34 AM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
Getting the news about the young man being caught, we can also discuss what he deserves as a punishment for this hurrendous act.
If only they threw him off that same bridge as punishment. See if he survives...
By that logic, people who eat meat should be eaten. Are you a vegetarian?
Yeah torch, that's kinda..Stupid.
The thing is, the dog was alive, not dead. Cooked meat doesn't have feelings, a living breathing thing does.
I think torch is more referring to the process of killing the animals for their meat.. not eating it... Either way, it's still a poor comparison... These people chucked a dog off a bridge, basically for revenge. Whereas killing animals for meat is a use for their bodies, just like when people use their fur for warmth.
I agree with my brother, that this guy should be neutered. That way he can't create any moronic spawn...
It makes me sick that these people would even consider throwing their dog off a bridge to be an option... Just thinking of how much I love my own dog makes me realize these people never cared for this dog in the first place. If they dont want the damn dog, give it to a shelter or something...
People like this make me shake my head in pity at the world. If you don't like dogs or any animals for that matter, fine.. To each their own. But treating them poorly or abusing them isn't the right way to handle it, no matter what. I don't care about your views on animal rights or not. They can feel pain just like any other human. I think the only reason an animal should be killed for is for the use of their meat/fur/whatever. If you're gonna kill an animal, because you think it's entertaining, or if it's your sick twisted version of fun, then you have no more reason to live than any other being on this planet and the world will do infinately better without you in it.
Only reason to kill a dog is if it is attacking someone to death (as happens in some cases). This is just sick.
Quote from: DarkTrinity on December 15, 2009, 01:49:51 PM
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 15, 2009, 12:54:11 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:22:43 AM
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 01:44:34 AM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
Getting the news about the young man being caught, we can also discuss what he deserves as a punishment for this hurrendous act.
If only they threw him off that same bridge as punishment. See if he survives...
By that logic, people who eat meat should be eaten. Are you a vegetarian?
Yeah torch, that's kinda..Stupid.
The thing is, the dog was alive, not dead. Cooked meat doesn't have feelings, a living breathing thing does.
I think torch is more referring to the process of killing the animals for their meat.. not eating it... Either way, it's still a poor comparison... These people chucked a dog off a bridge, basically for revenge. Whereas killing animals for meat is a use for their bodies, just like when people use their fur for warmth.
I agree with my brother, that this guy should be neutered. That way he can't create any moronic spawn...
It makes me sick that these people would even consider throwing their dog off a bridge to be an option... Just thinking of how much I love my own dog makes me realize these people never cared for this dog in the first place. If they dont want the damn dog, give it to a shelter or something...
People like this make me shake my head in pity at the world. If you don't like dogs or any animals for that matter, fine.. To each their own. But treating them poorly or abusing them isn't the right way to handle it, no matter what. I don't care about your views on animal rights or not. They can feel pain just like any other human. I think the only reason an animal should be killed for is for the use of their meat/fur/whatever. If you're gonna kill an animal, because you think it's entertaining, or if it's your sick twisted version of fun, then you have no more reason to live than any other being on this planet and the world will do infinately better without you in it.
Hell, I personally have a problem with people killing animals for their fur. You don't NEED it to survive. I do however agree than if a animal is killed by a human's hand, it should be for a good reason. Maybe it had rabies, maybe it attacked someone, maybe it was killed for food. But a dog sure as hell shouldn't be dropped off a bridge for no reason other than revenge because they couldn't keep the dog away from their chickens.
Technically we don't need meat to survive either. We are advanced enough that we can synthesize the protiens and nutrients that meat provides without using animals. Pretty soon we'll be eating vat meat. Yep, they can actually make small amounts of meat grown in a petri dish. Mmmmmm! It'll probably be cleaner and better tasting than the real thing. They would be using the best of the best cows to grow the meat from.
Anyways, just wanted to throw that out there.
@Lingus: The moment they have it available, I'll gladly eat it.
@Torch: Hardly the same thing. They were being douchebags solely for the purpose of being douchebags. Something you're no doubt familiar with.
Quote from: Chaos on December 15, 2009, 02:25:13 PM
@Lingus: The moment they have it available, I'll gladly eat it.
I look forward to the day I can eat a guilt free steak or hamburger. It has been a very very long time...
Is that the reason you don't eat beef or pork?
First off...I think this is absolutely disgusting.
And as you all were talking about earlier...you realize when they kill animals for meat/fur they don't drop them off 50 foot bridges...they quickly execute them so that they are not in pain. Also I don't think a dogs natural instinct to kill chickens should qualify to it's death...
It sickens me that this guy if all goes through, only faces up to a year in prison...I think animal cruelty sentences, at least in the circumstance, should be more punishing.
I feel like throwing up after watching this. :'( I'm happy the dog survived tho.
Quote from: Lingus on December 15, 2009, 02:33:37 PM
Quote from: Chaos on December 15, 2009, 02:25:13 PM
@Lingus: The moment they have it available, I'll gladly eat it.
I look forward to the day I can eat a guilt free steak or hamburger. It has been a very very long time...
It's been so long since I've eaten any animal flesh or product from an animal I've lost all desire for them. I can't say I'll eat man-made meat either. It sounds a bit distasteful. :P
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 15, 2009, 02:06:17 PM
You don't NEED it to survive.
I agree with DarkBlade here. I'm fairly certain the animal needs its fur/meat more than you.
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on December 15, 2009, 02:47:12 PM
...they quickly execute them so that they are not in pain.
You're deadly wrong there. Hanging a cow upside down by it's back legs from the ceiling and having its throat slit, thrashing and screaming the whole time while it's lifeblood drains from it, is not in any way a quick execution. How about scalding chickens alive to remove their feathers? Many survive that process before their heads are severed, and even then they retain consciousness for a short while. Ever hear the expression "running around like a chicken with its head cut off"?
Of course, this all happens at the time of death. Their whole lives are filled with pain and misery. But that's another story entirely.
Quote from: Trogdor on December 15, 2009, 03:03:09 PM
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on December 15, 2009, 02:47:12 PM
...they quickly execute them so that they are not in pain.
You're deadly wrong there. Hanging a cow upside down by it's back legs from the ceiling and having its throat slit, thrashing and screaming the whole time while it's lifeblood drains from it, is not in any way a quick execution. How about scalding chickens alive to remove their feathers? Many survive that process before their heads are severed, and even then they retain consciousness for a short while. Ever hear the expression "running around like a chicken with its head cut off"?
Of course, this all happens at the time of death. Their whole lives are filled with pain and misery. But that's another story entirely.
Do you really think that every butcher does this? I GUARANTEE that, at least in the United States, should this occur to a commercial butcher who sells his products to stores (where the majority of us acquire our meat), and gets caught or has his unethical methods of butchering go public, his business will be shut down in no time at all, or at least his products will not sell and he will run out of business very quickly.
Does that mean that every butcher is ethical? I'm not that naive, but the chance of me consuming meat from a cow who was lifted by his hind-legs and had his throat slit is rare (although I prefer medium-rare myself).
With reference to your reference of the phrase: "running around like a chicken with its head cut off". You do realize how that term came about, and more importantly, when it originated? It was a term that originated back in the late 19th century. Do you think farmers even had the term euthanasia back when they didn't even own cars and medical treatment consisted of a doctor with a hack saw standing over the soon-to-be-amputee saying "Here, bite down on this cow-bone I found in ol' gran-pappy yokum's pig pen, this here's gonna tickle quite some bit!" The term has since been used to reference a hyper-active child (all to commonly mis-diagnosed with ADD) with no sense of direction. Forget not the fact that if your head is severed from the body, that you immediately lose your sense of touch, with the separation of your spinal column that contains the most important parts of your nervous system. You're not likely to feel much at all upon having that happen, and I guarantee you won't live long at all.
With that said, I'm off to go get some bacon and sausage for tonight, think I'm gonna cook up a Bacon Explosion. Google it and tell me you don't want a bite!
Quote from: Scotty on December 15, 2009, 02:45:09 PM
Is that the reason you don't eat beef or pork?
It's a long story... Not all that interesting. I do eat meat currently just not beef or pork, but was fully vegetarian at one point for a few years.
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AM
I wanted to share this video and gather others thoughts on the matter. I want us to discuss how you feel about animal cruelty.
Well if that's what you want to know then I'm sure you can tell what i think about animal cruelty.
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AMNever asked you in specific to watch the video neither.
I know you never ask me in specific and i probably would not have even if you did. I just want to know who would want to event watch that video and for what reasons?
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 01:11:13 AMHaving knowledge of this insadent does not mean we would go throw animals off bridges...
When did i say that? I never said that watching this video will make you trow animals off bridges. NEVER. I just said it will spreads the idea around. But i will say that i was overreacting with that last line in that post many because it was from just the idea of some one who would do it.
Just being honest, things like this don't really phase me. Neither does animal testing. Yeah, dogs and other animals get treated crudely all the time, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it. Then again, these sorta stone-cold antics I have run through my blood. I've witnessed some gruesome things throughout my time.
I'm sorry to spoil your little bridge-throwing party, but this guy shouldn't be thrown off a bridge. Nor should he be exposed to the fear of it, or sentenced to die, or anything like that. You see, "an eye for an eye" system of justice doesn't extend to animals. Animals and humans are completely different beings.
As for eating meat or using fur for clothing, I think I need the meat far more than the animal will. First, the animal(say a cow) is going to do what? Is it going to make the world a better place? Is it going to make a positive difference in the life of a sentient being? Is it even going to have a chance to do so? My answers would be No/Probably not(a dog, maybe, but a cow?)/Chances are, only by being food.
Even if all butchers did do that, trogdor, if it was the only or best option, I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with that. Basically I would say an equation of worth goes like this. Human=Human. Animal<Human. Animal suffering<Human suffering. Animal suffering<human. Animal suffering>human laziness. Human laziness<Human.
Quote from: Jackabomb on December 15, 2009, 06:54:45 PM
I'm sorry to spoil your little bridge-throwing party, but this guy shouldn't be thrown off a bridge. Nor should he be exposed to the fear of it, or sentenced to die, or anything like that. You see, "an eye for an eye" system of justice doesn't extend to animals. Animals and humans are completely different beings.
As for eating meat or using fur for clothing, I think I need the meat far more than the animal will. First, the animal(say a cow) is going to do what? Is it going to make the world a better place? Is it going to make a positive difference in the life of a sentient being? Is it even going to have a chance to do so? My answers would be No/Probably not(a dog, maybe, but a cow?)/Chances are, only by being food.
Even if all butchers did do that, trogdor, if it was the only or best option, I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with that. Basically I would say an equation of worth goes like this. Human=Human. Animal<Human. Animal suffering<Human suffering. Animal suffering<human. Animal suffering>human laziness. Human laziness<Human.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I don't even know where to BEGIN with your post. What to pick apart and destroy first...choices choices...
EDIT: Eh, I was going to leave it at that since it pretty much already spoke for itself, but I'm bored.
QuoteAnimals and humans are completely different beings.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but humans are classified as animals. STRIKE ONE!
QuoteAs for eating meat or using fur for clothing, I think I need the meat far more than the animal will.
Yes, clearly your need to eat meat is far more important then the animal's need to LIVE. STRIKE TWO!
QuoteFirst, the animal(say a cow) is going to do what?
Live, for example.
QuoteIs it going to make the world a better place?
It's not going to make the world a worse place. That already brings it above a human being.
QuoteIs it going to make a positive difference in the life of a sentient being?
Ironic you state this, as animals are SENTIENT BEINGS. I love the positive difference you're making in the life of a sentient being AS YOU KILL IT.
QuoteIs it even going to have a chance to do so?
Not after it was kept caged all its life only to be killed for your food and fur coats, no, I don't think it had much of a chance to begin with.
STRIKE THREE! YOU'RE OUT!
QuoteBasically I would say an equation of worth goes like this. Human=Human. Animal<Human. Animal suffering<Human suffering. Animal suffering<human. Animal suffering>human laziness. Human laziness<Human.
Might want to check your math, bucko.
Let me clarify something for you, in case you haven't noticed. You're a sack of meat and bones, just like every other creature. You're not special. You can think well (and for a lot of humans, that's debatable)? Guess what. !@#$ing birds can fly. Can you do that? Cheetahs can run about 60 MPH. Can you do that? A gorilla could bench-press your ass. Can you do that? Fish can breathe under water. Can you do that?
Get off your !@#$ing pedestal.
And for the record, I eat meat. I like meat. It's called the food chain. But I don't go getting all high-and-mighty over it. If a lion tried to eat my ass, I wouldn't complain about it afterward if I survived, cause that's how nature works. Granted, I would also try to prevent it from happening, because I like to SURVIVE. That's ALSO how nature works. For OTHER animals, as well. And like Lingus was saying, once the choice is available, the choice between eating meat with or without killing other SENTIENT LIVING BEINGS, the obvious one is to pick the one that brings about the least suffering.
The fact that human beings are one of the only species that decides to act like a cruel asshole for no good reason, I think that pretty much already refutes your sense of superiority.
Okay. Let us be practical here: Why do the majority of farmers treat their livestock as they do? Because they want to get the most output for the least input; ie, they want to do as little work as possible and get the most meat as they can.
That being said - do you really think it is easier to hang a living cow that is thrashing to survive then cut its neck while it is still living, or one that you killed instantly by spiking its brain/heart? I think I can almost guarantee most farmers would kill the livestock first beforehand, it would be so much easier. I know there are those that don't, but from a economical viewpoint, they are gonna do whatever makes it easier.
I've struggled with the issue of animal cruelty for a long time. I absolutely despise those who kill for the sake of killing. Bugs, animals, whatever it is. If it isn't bothering you, if it hasn't done anything, then you shouldn't go for it. That being said, if you are going to kill it, kill it fast. There is absolutely no reason to torture an animal. I just hate how people try to prove superiority by going for defenseless animals; we already know you are tougher, no need to try and prove it.
However, I am not at all opposed to hunting. I am sickened by the modern day farms we have, and the cruel lives the animals have to live for, and I can only do so much... but, in honesty, I think being a vegan/vegetarian for the sake of the animals is ridiculous. You shouldn't have any ethical qualms about eating to survive. It is and has been in your blood for your entire life, and much of before it. Our body needs those nutrients they have to offer, that only a few plants can mimic. I can assure you as well, an animal wouldn't hesitate to devour you if its own survival was at stake.
Yeah, chaos? Why don't you tell me what you think is wrong instead of laughing like an idiot and posting stupid junk like that?
Quote from: Jackabomb on December 15, 2009, 06:54:45 PM
I'm sorry to spoil your little bridge-throwing party, but this guy shouldn't be thrown off a bridge. Nor should he be exposed to the fear of it, or sentenced to die, or anything like that. You see, "an eye for an eye" system of justice doesn't extend to animals. Animals and humans are completely different beings.
In your own opinion. Though I do agree it would be a bit excessive to punish this person in that manner. If you think about it though, had the kid thrown another kid off the bridge this would be a completely different story. Even if the person didn't die, it would be attempted murder rather than animal cruelty. I think they would get more than 1 year. So even if some people don't agree, the justice system we have in place agrees with Jackabomb.
I'm not sure what to say about the rest of your post. I think people really do fool themselves into thinking they aren't really harming animals by eating meat. It is too distant. Even though they realize they are eating an animal, they don't think about it.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 15, 2009, 07:11:23 PMHowever, I am not at all opposed to hunting. I am sickened by the modern day farms we have, and the cruel lives the animals have to live for, and I can only do so much... but, in honesty, I think being a vegan/vegetarian for the sake of the animals is ridiculous. You shouldn't have any ethical qualms about eating to survive. It is and has been in your blood for your entire life, and much of before it. Our body needs those nutrients they have to offer, that only a few plants can mimic. I can assure you as well, an animal wouldn't hesitate to devour you if its own survival was at stake.
Wow... I'm sorry, that's kind of ridiculous. First of all, I refer you to my earlier post about us not really needing to eat meat to survive. How can vegans/vegetarians survive if that were not that case? There's plenty of beans, nuts, etc that have the protiens that meats provide. You can live without eating meat. It is possible. So why kill? Because we like the taste of meat. It makes us happy. That's pretty much it.
And hunting!? Wow. Do you eat the animals you kill? If so then I guess that's okay, but if you just do it for sport than that is even worse. What justifies that? Because you wanted to have fun? Nice...
1) I made reference that we can survive without meat.
2) I don't hunt myself. I don't oppose hunting when the animal is killed for use. I say hunt for a reason, not killing for sport.
3) Humans haven't just been eating meat because we like it. If we decided to stop eating meats 100's of years ago, those people probably would have died off, due to our lack of understanding. Yeah, we have the understanding now. But it is still in our blood to be omnivores.
4) I'm talking about being vegan/vegetarian, for the sake of the animals. Why do you care about the animal in question? We have to survive somehow.
5) The entire growing meat in a vat is years off. I read the same article about it, and the scientists said "We are about 5 years off from having this meat meet the same quality of sausage". SAUSAGE. The worst meat out on the planet.
EDIT: Please read my posts before making assumptions like that. In fact, I can't see anything in your post about what I said that was ridiculous. All you mentioned was that we can survive without meat; I said there are plants that mimic that.... and that is about it for "whats ridiculous in my post".
Reposting from my edit on previous page cause you guys post too !@#$ing fast:
Quote from: Jackabomb on December 15, 2009, 06:54:45 PM
I'm sorry to spoil your little bridge-throwing party, but this guy shouldn't be thrown off a bridge. Nor should he be exposed to the fear of it, or sentenced to die, or anything like that. You see, "an eye for an eye" system of justice doesn't extend to animals. Animals and humans are completely different beings.
As for eating meat or using fur for clothing, I think I need the meat far more than the animal will. First, the animal(say a cow) is going to do what? Is it going to make the world a better place? Is it going to make a positive difference in the life of a sentient being? Is it even going to have a chance to do so? My answers would be No/Probably not(a dog, maybe, but a cow?)/Chances are, only by being food.
Even if all butchers did do that, trogdor, if it was the only or best option, I wouldn't say there's anything wrong with that. Basically I would say an equation of worth goes like this. Human=Human. Animal<Human. Animal suffering<Human suffering. Animal suffering<human. Animal suffering>human laziness. Human laziness<Human.
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
I don't even know where to BEGIN with your post. What to pick apart and destroy first...choices choices...
EDIT: Eh, I was going to leave it at that since it pretty much already spoke for itself, but I'm bored.
QuoteAnimals and humans are completely different beings.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but humans are classified as animals. STRIKE ONE!
QuoteAs for eating meat or using fur for clothing, I think I need the meat far more than the animal will.
Yes, clearly your need to eat meat is far more important then the animal's need to LIVE. STRIKE TWO!
QuoteFirst, the animal(say a cow) is going to do what?
Live, for example.
QuoteIs it going to make the world a better place?
It's not going to make the world a worse place. That already brings it above a human being.
QuoteIs it going to make a positive difference in the life of a sentient being?
Ironic you state this, as animals are SENTIENT BEINGS. I love the positive difference you're making in the life of a sentient being AS YOU KILL IT.
QuoteIs it even going to have a chance to do so?
Not after it was kept caged all its life only to be killed for your food and fur coats, no, I don't think it had much of a chance to begin with.
STRIKE THREE! YOU'RE OUT!
QuoteBasically I would say an equation of worth goes like this. Human=Human. Animal<Human. Animal suffering<Human suffering. Animal suffering<human. Animal suffering>human laziness. Human laziness<Human.
Might want to check your math, bucko.
Let me clarify something for you, in case you haven't noticed. You're a sack of meat and bones, just like every other creature. You're not special. You can think well (and for a lot of humans, that's debatable)? Guess what. !@#$ing birds can fly. Can you do that? Cheetahs can run about 60 MPH. Can you do that? A gorilla could bench-press your ass. Can you do that? Fish can breathe under water. Can you do that?
Get off your !@#$ing pedestal.
And for the record, I eat meat. I like meat. It's called the food chain. But I don't go getting all high-and-mighty over it. If a lion tried to eat my ass, I wouldn't complain about it afterward if I survived, cause that's how nature works. Granted, I would also try to prevent it from happening, because I like to SURVIVE. That's ALSO how nature works. For OTHER animals, as well. And like Lingus was saying, once the choice is available, the choice between eating meat with or without killing other SENTIENT LIVING BEINGS, the obvious one is to pick the one that brings about the least suffering.
The fact that human beings are one of the only species that decides to act like a cruel asshole for no good reason, I think that pretty much already refutes your sense of superiority.
I'm not particularly against hunting for fun. It's not cruel as most hunters use shotguns(how I hate those devices), resulting in an almost instant death. The example I'm thinking of is when my brother went hunting with my dad early Sunday morning. He shot and killed two small birds. Did he eat them? No. Did their death really serve a purpose? Not particularly.
No apologies to chaos at this point.
Sausage is NOT the worst meat on the planet! The worst meat on the planet is indisputably spam.
Human values are not values of life in general. Or at least we don't know. Just want to make that clear.
Quote from: Jackabomb on December 15, 2009, 07:31:45 PM
Sausage is NOT the worst meat on the planet! The worst meat on the planet is indisputably spam.
OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3483682)
EDIT: Incidentally, I realize my previous post sounds fairly harsh, but I'm passionate about destroying ignorance.
First and foremost, I did not at all want to impress upon you all not to eat animals. That's your decision, and I respect that. Mr Pwnage erred, so I corrected him.
Now, on to your post.
QuoteDo you really think that every butcher does this?
No, I do not believe every butcher does this. The video in one of my previous posts was of a few isolated slaughter houses, probably near the worse in the US just to get the shock value. I'm fairly certain these few slaughter houses have been shut down.
QuoteI'm not that naive, but the chance of me consuming meat from a cow who was lifted by his hind-legs and had his throat slit is rare
You contradict yourself. This procedure is done to drain the blood from the flesh of the animal, making the processing, packaging, and preserving of the meat that much cleaner and faster. It's not done just for the hell of it.
QuoteForget not the fact that if your head is severed from the body, that you immediately lose your sense of touch, with the separation of your spinal column that contains the most important parts of your nervous system. You're not likely to feel much at all upon having that happen, and I guarantee you won't live long at all.
This would be true if we were talking about human beings. However, this is not the case. When you decapitate a chicken, it's easy to miss some of the lower brain still in the neck. Thanks to their nervous systems being much lower than that of a human, this small bit of brain stem is enough to keep the chicken functioning, albeit a short time.
Edit: I was going to comment on your post Jackabomb, but Chaos beat me to it. I couldn't have said it better myself.
Edit:
I don't think i can post what i think about "meat" in a short post.
Quote from: Chaos on December 15, 2009, 07:35:22 PM
Quote from: Jackabomb on December 15, 2009, 07:31:45 PM
Sausage is NOT the worst meat on the planet! The worst meat on the planet is indisputably spam.
OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3483682)
EDIT: Incidentally, I realize my previous post sounds fairly harsh, but I'm passionate about destroying ignorance.
Hey.. Sausage is good, and spam is delicious.
Anyways, that poor dog. ):
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 15, 2009, 07:27:10 PM
1) I made reference that we can survive without meat.
2) I don't hunt myself. I don't oppose hunting when the animal is killed for use. I say hunt for a reason, not killing for sport.
3) Humans haven't just been eating meat because we like it. If we decided to stop eating meats 100's of years ago, those people probably would have died off, due to our lack of understanding. Yeah, we have the understanding now. But it is still in our blood to be omnivores.
4) I'm talking about being vegan/vegetarian, for the sake of the animals. Why do you care about the animal in question? We have to survive somehow.
5) The entire growing meat in a vat is years off. I read the same article about it, and the scientists said "We are about 5 years off from having this meat meet the same quality of sausage". SAUSAGE. The worst meat out on the planet.
EDIT: Please read my posts before making assumptions like that. In fact, I can't see anything in your post about what I said that was ridiculous. All you mentioned was that we can survive without meat; I said there are plants that mimic that.... and that is about it for "whats ridiculous in my post".
You're way off. I did read your whole post. Get over yourself. You say you made reference that we can survive without meat. So why are you continuing to say we need it to survive. We don't... and I'm not even talking about vat meat. I actually said beans, nuts, etc. Soy bean in particular is a massive source of protien. And there are plenty others. So I say to YOU, read MY posts before responding...
And what the hell is wrong with not eating meat for the sake of the animal? People care a lot about animals. I would bet most animals are better people than most people.
I don't know why, but I have no problem with any inhumane treatment of animals (cats are an exception). I love meat and I see no reason why we shouldn't kill animals for meat. There is no benefit to not eating meat or refusing to buy fur coats.
My opinion on the matter is that people should be able to decide for themselves what rights they want to give to animals and not try to enforce their own moral codes. If you don't like killing animals, by all means don't kill animals, but don't make it a problem for everyone else.
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:29:15 PM
I don't know why, but I have no problem with any inhumane treatment of any animals except cats and huskys. I love meat and I see no reason why we shouldn't kill animals for meat when it tastes so good. There is no benefit to not eating meat or refusing to by fur coats, all that does is inconvenience you.
I agree that humans are, like any other animal out there, killers to another species (And our own at times). I also agree that I can't bare to watch dogs nor cats get treated horribly from all the other animals out there, maybe because we grown so close to them as our house pets.
Animal testing is a major problem as well... Has anyone seen the video with the cat that was put into a tank and given LSD? I mean, we don't need knowledge on what would happen if a cat was high on a drug such as that. There are plenty other useless tests done for the sake of doing them, and it's disgusting. Animals do not deserve to be tested with our chemicals. :'(
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 08:36:16 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:29:15 PM
I don't know why, but I have no problem with any inhumane treatment of any animals except cats and huskys. I love meat and I see no reason why we shouldn't kill animals for meat when it tastes so good. There is no benefit to not eating meat or refusing to by fur coats, all that does is inconvenience you.
I agree that humans are, like any other animal out there, killers to another species (And our own at times). I also agree that I can't bare to watch dogs nor cats get treated horribly from all the other animals out there, maybe because we grown so close to them as our house pets.
Animal testing is a major problem as well... Has anyone seen the video with the cat that was put into a tank and given LSD? I mean, we don't need knowledge on what would happen if a cat was high on a drug such as that. There are plenty other useless tests done for the sake of doing them, and it's disgusting. Animals do not deserve to be tested with our chemicals. :'(
All species care more for their own species than others. This is natural. It is better for us that the effects of drugs are tested on other animals than on humans.
First off, I won't even respond to Torch as I stopped caring about his "opinions" long ago.
Secondly, to Mr Pwnage who believed animals intended to be killed for food are NOT always killed quickly and humanely nor are euthanized. Partially because it's more expensive that way. There was some group that went under cover to some large company(I want to say Hormel.. but I'm not 100% sure...) and they videotaped the employees torturing the pigs before killing them.. they would spray paint in their eyes, they would cut them, they'd cut off their tails, they'd do things that were indesputedly unnecessary to these pigs, and laughed about it.
No, I do not believe all butchers do this, I don't believe all butchers are cruel to the animals they kill. But it does happen.
And I would just like to point out that I don't personally believe that animals should be killed for their coats purely for fashionable reasons. Infact, it gives me unwanted chills to even touch rabbit/chinchilla/etc. fur coats... i presonally find it repulsing. I was more referring to the way native americans used animals... they used every part of the animal and didn't waste anything. To me, that's the most sensible way....
Quote from: Lingus on December 15, 2009, 08:22:44 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 15, 2009, 07:27:10 PM
1) I made reference that we can survive without meat.
2) I don't hunt myself. I don't oppose hunting when the animal is killed for use. I say hunt for a reason, not killing for sport.
3) Humans haven't just been eating meat because we like it. If we decided to stop eating meats 100's of years ago, those people probably would have died off, due to our lack of understanding. Yeah, we have the understanding now. But it is still in our blood to be omnivores.
4) I'm talking about being vegan/vegetarian, for the sake of the animals. Why do you care about the animal in question? We have to survive somehow.
5) The entire growing meat in a vat is years off. I read the same article about it, and the scientists said "We are about 5 years off from having this meat meet the same quality of sausage". SAUSAGE. The worst meat out on the planet.
EDIT: Please read my posts before making assumptions like that. In fact, I can't see anything in your post about what I said that was ridiculous. All you mentioned was that we can survive without meat; I said there are plants that mimic that.... and that is about it for "whats ridiculous in my post".
You're way off. I did read your whole post. Get over yourself. You say you made reference that we can survive without meat. So why are you continuing to say we need it to survive. We don't... and I'm not even talking about vat meat. I actually said beans, nuts, etc. Soy bean in particular is a massive source of protien. And there are plenty others. So I say to YOU, read MY posts before responding...
And what the hell is wrong with not eating meat for the sake of the animal? People care a lot about animals. I would bet most animals are better people than most people.
It is an opinion, for god's sake. I was stating why I don't see you should be a vegetarian for the sake of the animal. Almost everyone else here says nearly the same thing; we kill and eat to survive. AND YOU HAD A POST ABOUT VAT MEAT, THAT'S WHY I BROUGHT IT UP. I have no problems with vegetarians, but I believe certain things like you do, but apparently my beliefs are wrong to you, oh hoh hoh.
I don't mind people questioning me, but to do it so antagonistically, like I'm criminal and inherently wrong just pisses me off.
EDIT:
I don't understand where the misunderstanding occurred, but I blatantly oppose animal cruelty, and any harm, for the sake of harming the animal. I was stating that I disagree with the sentiment of being a vegetarian for the sake of the animals, as it is more or less futile. Yes, you can survive without eating meat; I never once said you couldn't. However, just because we CAN, doesn't mean we SHOULD. That is all.
To reiterate my view. I don't have a problem with killing an animal, as long as you have a damn good reason to do it. You want a fur coat? Then you better be in a !@#$ing cold climate. Killing for the sake of killing is a horrible thing. You might as well be arguing that school shootings are a-okay.
"Hey, I'm bored! Let's go kill things!"
Let me make this perfectly clear for ALL of you. I attach no special meaning to any of your lives. If you honestly want to argue with me that causing suffering to other living things is okay, then you damn well better not meet me in real life, because I will gladly use your moral code when dealing with you.
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:38:27 PM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 08:36:16 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:29:15 PM
I don't know why, but I have no problem with any inhumane treatment of any animals except cats and huskys. I love meat and I see no reason why we shouldn't kill animals for meat when it tastes so good. There is no benefit to not eating meat or refusing to by fur coats, all that does is inconvenience you.
I agree that humans are, like any other animal out there, killers to another species (And our own at times). I also agree that I can't bare to watch dogs nor cats get treated horribly from all the other animals out there, maybe because we grown so close to them as our house pets.
Animal testing is a major problem as well... Has anyone seen the video with the cat that was put into a tank and given LSD? I mean, we don't need knowledge on what would happen if a cat was high on a drug such as that. There are plenty other useless tests done for the sake of doing them, and it's disgusting. Animals do not deserve to be tested with our chemicals. :'(
All species care more for their own species than others. This is natural. It is better for us that the effects of drugs are tested on other animals than on humans.
Torch you are wrong. Testing on humans would be a lot more efficient then testing on animals. Seeing as testing on a human would produce a faster, more accurate result seeing as we have the same exact DNA; albeit being more costly.
Quote from: NotoriousM4^ on December 15, 2009, 09:11:26 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:38:27 PM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 08:36:16 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:29:15 PM
I don't know why, but I have no problem with any inhumane treatment of any animals except cats and huskys. I love meat and I see no reason why we shouldn't kill animals for meat when it tastes so good. There is no benefit to not eating meat or refusing to by fur coats, all that does is inconvenience you.
I agree that humans are, like any other animal out there, killers to another species (And our own at times). I also agree that I can't bare to watch dogs nor cats get treated horribly from all the other animals out there, maybe because we grown so close to them as our house pets.
Animal testing is a major problem as well... Has anyone seen the video with the cat that was put into a tank and given LSD? I mean, we don't need knowledge on what would happen if a cat was high on a drug such as that. There are plenty other useless tests done for the sake of doing them, and it's disgusting. Animals do not deserve to be tested with our chemicals. :'(
All species care more for their own species than others. This is natural. It is better for us that the effects of drugs are tested on other animals than on humans.
Torch you are wrong. Testing on humans would be a lot more efficient then testing on animals. Seeing as testing on a human would produce a faster, more accurate result seeing as we have the same exact DNA; albeit being more costly.
But because as humans, we care more about other humans, it is safer for us to test on non-humans.
If it's potentially not-safe for human beings, what makes us think using it on other living creatures is okay? They can feel pain just as much as we can. You can say we care more about our own species, and that's true. But what makes it right? Aren't we supposed to be the 'intelligent' ones?
EDIT: Lingus, Cactus, settle down, take a deep breathe. We're adults, yes? Let's discuss like them, shall we? No need to get antagonistic. Clarify your positions and get on the same page.
(Yes, I sound like a hypocrite. Alas, I don't really care.)
DOUBLE EDIT: Actually, looking back at this topic, it's seems to have gotten pretty heated on every side. Let's all take a deep breathe, then, and take this back to a mature discussion.
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 09:20:16 PM
Quote from: NotoriousM4^ on December 15, 2009, 09:11:26 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:38:27 PM
Quote from: Delicious on December 15, 2009, 08:36:16 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 08:29:15 PM
I don't know why, but I have no problem with any inhumane treatment of any animals except cats and huskys. I love meat and I see no reason why we shouldn't kill animals for meat when it tastes so good. There is no benefit to not eating meat or refusing to by fur coats, all that does is inconvenience you.
I agree that humans are, like any other animal out there, killers to another species (And our own at times). I also agree that I can't bare to watch dogs nor cats get treated horribly from all the other animals out there, maybe because we grown so close to them as our house pets.
Animal testing is a major problem as well... Has anyone seen the video with the cat that was put into a tank and given LSD? I mean, we don't need knowledge on what would happen if a cat was high on a drug such as that. There are plenty other useless tests done for the sake of doing them, and it's disgusting. Animals do not deserve to be tested with our chemicals. :'(
All species care more for their own species than others. This is natural. It is better for us that the effects of drugs are tested on other animals than on humans.
Torch you are wrong. Testing on humans would be a lot more efficient then testing on animals. Seeing as testing on a human would produce a faster, more accurate result seeing as we have the same exact DNA; albeit being more costly.
But because as humans, we care more about other humans, it is safer for us to test on non-humans.
That is not a fact, that is an opinion.
The central tenet of my views is that humans are higher than animals. Period. If you can understand the implications of that, you'll very quickly understand my view. Hitler, we'll use him. We all know he was muck. That is on a moral/ethical scale. Are there MICE that have been higher on the ethical scale? I'll bet. However, Hitler has a higher intelligence. If he had done right, he would have been far higher on that scale than a mouse. On a side note, I've often wondered what might have happened to our world if Hitler had obeyed God. Even though scientists classify humans as animals(yes, I knew that already, chaos), they have yet to identify what separates humans from beasts. There is a difference. I don't see apes building cities. I don't think that being alive makes you equals. Are you really saying that you have no more worth than an amoeba?
Chaos, apologies. Even if my views were the same as yours, I don't think I'd like to run into you in real life. You seem rather mean. You may be passionate about your belief, but I think the insults were uncalled for.
Quote from: Jackabomb on December 15, 2009, 10:20:34 PM
The central tenet of my views is that humans are higher than animals. Period. If you can understand the implications of that, you'll very quickly understand my view. Hitler, we'll use him. We all know he was muck. That is on a moral/ethical scale. Are there MICE that have been higher on the ethical scale? I'll bet. However, Hitler has a higher intelligence. If he had done right, he would have been far higher on that scale than a mouse. On a side note, I've often wondered what might have happened to our world if Hitler had obeyed God. Even though scientists classify humans as animals(yes, I knew that already, chaos), they have yet to identify what separates humans from beasts. There is a difference. I don't see apes building cities. I don't think that being alive makes you equals. Are you really saying that you have no more worth than an amoeba?
Chaos, apologies. Even if my views were the same as yours, I don't think I'd like to run into you in real life. You seem rather mean. You may be passionate about your belief, but I think the insults were uncalled for.
Gtfo. Seriously I'm tired of every damn topic going back to Nazis, and Religion. We can definitely have a civilized debate without bringing up the two. And if your trying to debate on morals and ethics then this is clearly going nowhere.
Edit: Chaos I would love to have you on my debate team ;). [I'm one trophy away from competing in Finals]
Well, for one Notorious, this debate is about Morals and Ethics.
Religion is VERY tied in with both Morals and Ethics, so he is completely justified in bringing it up. Hitler is always brought up because it is the best absolute case we can think of.
Next, Jackabomb... Scientists have already found what makes us different from beasts. Heck, it wasn't even scientists, it only takes someone with a brain to figure out. We can REASON, we can THINK (at least on a much much higher scale than they can). We surpass their knowledge and intelligence, and with reason. That is what makes us different. We are animals - humans do alot of things, that are incredibly stupid, that even animals wouldn't do.
I really understand your viewpoint. I do tend to hold humans in higher regards, but I don't think we are on the higher pedestal.
Quote from: Chaos on December 15, 2009, 09:31:49 PM
If it's potentially not-safe for human beings, what makes us think using it on other living creatures is okay? They can feel pain just as much as we can. You can say we care more about our own species, and that's true. But what makes it right? Aren't we supposed to be the 'intelligent' ones?
Nothing makes it "right". Morals differ from person to person. There's no way to argue whether or not it's "right" because it is an opinion. Animal fur makes excellent material for clothing so the most logical choice is to make use of that. If someone finds this morally wrong, they have the option to not buy fur coats, and that's fine by me. I just wish people wouldn't force their own moral values upon people who don't think the same way as they do.
@Notorious: What I said wasn't an opinion. I said species care more for their own species. I shouldn't have to prove that to you, I think it's pretty obvious but if you don't believe that, I won't argue it with you.
Quote from: Chaos on December 15, 2009, 09:08:27 PM
I don't have a problem with killing an animal, as long as you have a damn good reason to do it. You want a fur coat? Then you better be in a !@#$ing cold climate. Killing for the sake of killing is a horrible thing.
This guy is one of the few people in this topic that has the right idea about all of this.
As an agricultural and horticulture student, I actually know a thing or two about all of this. During my classes I did go to a slaughter house and witnessed all of this. I know what it is like. I'm also an animal lover (like most here). Anyway, Chaos and others have made a reference to the "energy cycle" (without using the name), for those who don't know what this is it's the cycle of matter/energy/whatever you call it. An example of this would be when you eat something and the nutrients gathered from whatever you just ate are used in the body. The output of this energy for humans can be anything of the following; bone growth, hair growth, ability to run and walk, poo, etc. Now any physics students should know that the output energy that comes from a reaction is the same as the input energy.
Therefore, In = Out.
In the example I said above, I stated a number of outputs, most of these were solely in the body itself. However poo is a waste product. Now, in chaos's fur coat is also a waste product (only becuase the animal is dead and has no need for it), Chaos makes the reference to the "usefulness" to the waste produces. As there is no point wearing a fur coat in Melbourne during summer time! But have any of you ever thought how poo can be useful? It's very useful in terms of agriculture and horticulture. Did anyone know that Urea (piss) is 46% nitrogen and is the most major nutrient for plant growth? With that said, it would make more sense to "sell" our poo cheaply to farmers to use as fertiliser? Now that's an idea. It helps plant growth and completes the energy cycle. Plus we have some cow hides to make leather with.
I might be a little unclear with this, but I'll drew a diagram of the energy cycle with a human, a plant and a cow in it.
(http://img696.imageshack.us/img696/3724/energy.png)
Conclusion: Everything has it's place in the world, if science has taught me anything it's that humans are no means special then anyone else. If have to kill something then use what have have killed well.
Also on another note, Jackabomb GTFU.
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 10:36:10 PM
Nothing makes it "right". Morals differ from person to person. There's no way to argue whether or not it's "right" because it is an opinion. Animal fur makes excellent material for clothing so the most logical choice is to make use of that. If someone finds this morally wrong, they have the option to not buy fur coats, and that's fine by me. I just wish people wouldn't force their own moral values upon people who don't think the same way as they do.
Does that mean you think Schindler was wrong for trying to save as many Jews as he could during the Holocaust? After all, he was imposing his beliefs into Hitlers view system, despite the fact that his Morals were not anymore right or wrong than Hitlers.
Quote from: Jackabomb on December 15, 2009, 10:20:34 PM
The central tenet of my views is that humans are higher than animals. Period. If you can understand the implications of that, you'll very quickly understand my view. Hitler, we'll use him. We all know he was muck. That is on a moral/ethical scale. Are there MICE that have been higher on the ethical scale? I'll bet. However, Hitler has a higher intelligence. If he had done right, he would have been far higher on that scale than a mouse. On a side note, I've often wondered what might have happened to our world if Hitler had obeyed God. Even though scientists classify humans as animals(yes, I knew that already, chaos), they have yet to identify what separates humans from beasts. There is a difference. I don't see apes building cities. I don't think that being alive makes you equals. Are you really saying that you have no more worth than an amoeba?
I didn't say being alive makes you equal. I said that being intelligent doesn't make you BETTER. Humans are intelligent, yes. We are not fast. We can not fly. We can not breathe under water. We can't (easily) climb trees. We aren't very strong. We can't jump very high. The list goes on. My question is, what makes the gift of complex intelligence so special? Claiming you're superior because you can think a bit better is an awfully arrogant statement.
And if we aren't superior, then, logically, we are equal. We aren't better than other animals. We just happen to have a different strength.
As far as moral and ethics go, there is no such thing. It's a man-made construct, and we set the rules on right and wrong.
Let me put this another way. An alien race arrives on earth. They are far more intelligent and advanced. Obviously, by your logic, that means they are superior to us. Therefore, they should be allowed to take advantage of us and be allowed to kill us for their own amusement? If you would not want that, why would you think it's okay to do it to other living creatures?
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 11:02:03 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 10:36:10 PM
Nothing makes it "right". Morals differ from person to person. There's no way to argue whether or not it's "right" because it is an opinion. Animal fur makes excellent material for clothing so the most logical choice is to make use of that. If someone finds this morally wrong, they have the option to not buy fur coats, and that's fine by me. I just wish people wouldn't force their own moral values upon people who don't think the same way as they do.
Does that mean you think Schindler was wrong for trying to save as many Jews as he could during the Holocaust? After all, he was imposing his beliefs into Hitlers view system, despite the fact that his Morals were not anymore right or wrong than Hitlers.
Hitler was trying to enforce his beliefs upon other people. Schindler was trying to prevent that.
Furthermore, Schindler, in another view, was trying to enforce the view that enforcing views upon people is bad, and Hitler was trying to prevent that...
Just pointing out that a person who believes that no one belief is correct believes that their belief (that no one belief is correct) is correct.
I never said that killing animals for fun was good. Chaos, you make a valid point. I suppose the only reason humans are 'superior' are then, because we're arrogant I suppose? There is no mistaking that we are the dominant species on this planet, however and I see now that therefore, we get to decide what is what. It is the same in nature. As for Torch and Notorious who tell me to "get the !@#$ out"(please tell me you at least knew the meaning of the acronym you were using), I really don't have anything to say to you. Notorious, I mentioned Hitler. I'm not making light of what he did by referencing him. The most common issues I've seen about Hitler and religion(how are the two related?) are a. Making light of his actions or joking about it. and B: trying to force your views on others. That term, of course, has now been twisted out of proportion to the point that if I merely suggest that you are wrong in your belief system, I'm "forcing" my views on you.
I'll leave the Hitler business up to the people who seem to know more about it.
Quote from: ChaosLet me put this another way. An alien race arrives on earth. They are far more intelligent and advanced. Obviously, by your logic, that means they are superior to us. Therefore, they should be allowed to take advantage of us and be allowed to kill us for their own amusement? If you would not want that, why would you think it's okay to do it to other living creatures?
That is
by far my favorite argument in support of animals.
My point is, humans are 'superior' only because we like to tell ourselves we are. There is no other logical reason to think so.
Do I think we should not kill animals? I honestly have no problem with it, as long as it's being done for a reason. As a part of nature, we eat other animals. Animals eat other animals. Those animals can eat other animals. And, hell, some animals can eat us. And yet we all also want to live. So, what conclusion do we come to?
Do what causes the least overall harm. Do not cause unnecessary suffering.
If we're going to eat meat (we ARE omnivores, after all), eat meat. If you need to keep warm, get a fur coat. But for !@#$'s sake, don't do something wasteful. If you can do something without bringing suffering to others, why would you choose to do something that DOES bring suffering to others?
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 11:14:58 PM
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 11:02:03 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 10:36:10 PM
Nothing makes it "right". Morals differ from person to person. There's no way to argue whether or not it's "right" because it is an opinion. Animal fur makes excellent material for clothing so the most logical choice is to make use of that. If someone finds this morally wrong, they have the option to not buy fur coats, and that's fine by me. I just wish people wouldn't force their own moral values upon people who don't think the same way as they do.
Does that mean you think Schindler was wrong for trying to save as many Jews as he could during the Holocaust? After all, he was imposing his beliefs into Hitlers view system, despite the fact that his Morals were not anymore right or wrong than Hitlers.
Hitler was trying to enforce his beliefs upon other people. Schindler was trying to prevent that.
Which means they're BOTH in the wrong according to your viewpoint because both are trying to impose on each others view points. Schindler isn't in any danger, yet he still imposes on Hitlers scheme. Why? Because he has emotion. Why does he have emotion? Because he's a human ****ing being.
Using the same argument you used against me, I can apply it to the debate on killing animals: If someone wants to impose their views on animals by killing them, people who stop them are only trying to prevent the animals deaths. That is the same argument you just gave me, except yours dealt with the deaths of people. You seem to think that people can do whatever they want because it's their own moral code, but this doesn't ring true for killing humans simply because you don't want it to. I can't believe you don't see how distorted your own beliefs are. If you think it's ok for people to follow their own moral code, you can't pick and choose which subjects are allowed to be disregarded. It's all or nothing. Are you going to pick the side which admits your human? Or are you going to admit to us how robotic you are, and finally admit that you have no real emotion.
Quote from: DarkTrinity on December 15, 2009, 11:40:14 PM
Quote from: ChaosLet me put this another way. An alien race arrives on earth. They are far more intelligent and advanced. Obviously, by your logic, that means they are superior to us. Therefore, they should be allowed to take advantage of us and be allowed to kill us for their own amusement? If you would not want that, why would you think it's okay to do it to other living creatures?
That is by far my favorite argument in support of animals.
The only thing I can think now is that Futurama episode, where Fry loses his nose being it was "a very potent alien aphrodesiac".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Fry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Fry)
Scary stuff.
I would write some long in depth intellectual response to this, stating how I feel about animal rights, probably mentioning that I'm a vegetarian, and then make some witty remark about how much Jackabomb and his ego make love.
Instead I say Penis.
You're welcome for my input. That'll be $15.99.
Quote from: Chaos on December 15, 2009, 07:35:22 PM
Quote from: Jackabomb on December 15, 2009, 07:31:45 PM
Sausage is NOT the worst meat on the planet! The worst meat on the planet is indisputably spam.
OBJECTION! (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3483682)
EDIT: Incidentally, I realize my previous post sounds fairly harsh, but I'm passionate about destroying ignorance.
Never thought I'd see the day Chaos using the same site I used in a later topic to get a point across.
At any rate, let me sum it up here. If you're going to kill an animal, have a good reason to do it. It's been said countless times, but yet this thread is still going on.
Now as cruel as this may make me sound, I personally think the 'eye for an eye' method seems fair as all hell. Does it really sound right that a dude dropped a dog off of a bridge, left it near the road as it whined with broken bones with cars flying by, and the culprit's only punishment is a year in jail? That is utter bullshit. Let me ask you this, you think culprits would give a !@#$ about what he did to an animal if his only punishment was spending a year in a cell? You think he cares about having to pay a fine? The point he, he practically tortured a living animal, and he was just put in the naughty corner.
As said before. I don't care if a animal is as small as a new born, or as big as an elephant, it HAS feelings. Just because it can't speak doesn't change that fact. If we were all so dense, that would mean we could just kill ANYONE we see that happens to be a mute/speaks a different language and get off scott free, with maybe a year or two in jail. What kind of sense would that make? Give me one, give me ONE good reason why a human's life is better than every other living thing on earth. Oh because we can "change the world". So far we're turning the Earth into a shit ball floating in space and killing each other, that's certainly changing the world isn't it?
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 12:02:20 AM
Never thought I'd see the day Chaos using the same site I used in a later topic to get a point across.
Oh, I've been playing with that site constantly ever since I saw it in the other topic. Good fun.
Quote from: Chaos on December 16, 2009, 12:35:06 AM
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 12:02:20 AM
Never thought I'd see the day Chaos using the same site I used in a later topic to get a point across.
Oh, I've been playing with that site constantly ever since I saw it in the other topic. Good fun.
Shit ton of codes for it too.
This, has to be my favorite one Ive made. (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3484326)
But I suppose we should stay on topic, though I kinda wish we could take a U turn at the moment.
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 12:41:06 AM
Quote from: Chaos on December 16, 2009, 12:35:06 AM
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 12:02:20 AM
Never thought I'd see the day Chaos using the same site I used in a later topic to get a point across.
Oh, I've been playing with that site constantly ever since I saw it in the other topic. Good fun.
Shit ton of codes for it too.
This, has to be my favorite one Ive made. (http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3484326)
But I suppose we should stay on topic, though I kinda wish we could take a U turn at the moment.
<3 Phoenix Wright or was that Wrong?
http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs29/f/2008/136/e/1/GET_BURNED_by_DiosBoss.jpg (http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs29/f/2008/136/e/1/GET_BURNED_by_DiosBoss.jpg)
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 12:02:20 AM
Now as cruel as this may make me sound, I personally think the 'eye for an eye' method seems fair as all hell.
It may seem fair at first, but so does Communism. Personally I believe that, as a human being, you should take the high road and not stoop to his level. It does not solve the problem of pushing sentient beings off bridges by pushing more off. All you will end up with is a traffic jam.
I think Martin Luther King Jr. and Mahatma Gandhi had the right idea with their peaceful protests, though I'm still pondering how you could solve this type of situation using their methods. What I DO know is battling violence with more violence solves nothing. We're living proof of that fact. Humans have been warring for thousands of years, even before our time as Homo sapiens, and it continues to this day. Perhaps we should deviate a little from our current path and try out something new.
Quote from: Trogdor on December 16, 2009, 01:23:55 AM
It may seem fair at first, but so does Communism.
Do you know anything ABOUT communism? It's actually quite a brilliant system.
Quote from: Trogdor on December 16, 2009, 01:23:55 AM
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 12:02:20 AM
Now as cruel as this may make me sound, I personally think the 'eye for an eye' method seems fair as all hell.
It may seem fair at first, but so does Communism. Personally I believe that, as a human being, you should take the high road and not stoop to his level. It does not solve the problem of pushing sentient beings off bridges by pushing more off.
Ah but it creates fear. Think about it for a moment. I have more to say, but for the moment, just think how people would react to a 'eye for an eye' sentence on just ONE person who tortured an animal to some degree.
Quote from: Chaos on December 16, 2009, 01:30:08 AM
Quote from: Trogdor on December 16, 2009, 01:23:55 AM
It may seem fair at first, but so does Communism.
Do you know anything ABOUT communism? It's actually quite a brilliant system.
I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the countries practicing Communism right now, not the form Karl Marx advocated.
I agree with you there. It is a very ingenious form of government, however the idealisms expressed by Marx cannot exist right now in this type of political climate. Right now it's a great theory, but those countries that practice that form of government are proof of how it can go horribly awry (such as the Marxism-Leninism form of Communism). It will be awhile before the human race achieves "Pure Communism", but until then it's simply an interesting notion.
Back on topic, did anything ever happen to the guy's friends who were videotaping him? Did they get a slap on the wrist for being "accomplices", or were they just ignored overall?
poor dog... shouldn't have to deal with that kinda crap, but i have seen worse... i have been through a lot in life
umm. idk where to start... especially after reading almost all of the posts...
The fact that the guy only got one year of jail time is shit... lemme just say that...
I eat meat, i like it, and i have seen a pig get butchered and lemme tell you. It is done quickly and how i saw it done was the guy shocked the pig so he wouldn't feel anything and couldn't move, then sliced its neck and let it bleed out on the ground. IDK if it is the BEST method of doing it, but it was a mobile truck doing it, not at a factory.
I think humans eating meat is part of the pyramid or whatever you wanna call it... Say parrots (second smartest animal on earth i believe, third ebing a dolphin correct me if i am wrong) were smarter than humans and were the "dominant" species of Earth. One somehow manages to drop you from a bridge 50 ft tall, and you live. What would you like seen done to the parrot. Would you like to just see it in jail for one year? or thrown off a bridge just like it did you?
I do like the eye for an eye concept. FOR MOST THINGS. there are somethings that should NEVER be repeated, but say a guy shot one of your parents and killed them, wouldn't you want to see that guy dead? i certainly would. Hell, i wanna see the guy that killed my grandpa dead. Instead, he is out there !@#$ing other peoples lives up.
This guy who dropped the dog is gonna go out there and keep doing stupid shit like this until he finally get satisfied, gets killed, or spends the rest of his life in jail. but thats my opinion (prepares for chaos's flaming)
Quote from: DivineLegend on December 16, 2009, 03:16:38 AM
IDK if it is the BEST method of doing it, but it was a mobile truck doing it, not at a factory.
A bullet to the brain?
Holy SH*T!
hope that dog gets its revenge!!
you can see the precise moment when the front right leg snaps on impact!*throws up abit*
i hate people who post shit like this (for people who posted them doing it and people posting it other places to make it more well known)
gees guys! if u see this sh*t, don't post it anywhere else. its disgusting. it makes u as bad as the people doing it.
so don't make other people watch it(i know ur gonna be like.... but i didn't force them too. yeah well peoples curiosity gets the better of them 9/10)
there thats my say
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 11:56:07 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 11:14:58 PM
Quote from: Jake on December 15, 2009, 11:02:03 PM
Quote from: Torch on December 15, 2009, 10:36:10 PM
Nothing makes it "right". Morals differ from person to person. There's no way to argue whether or not it's "right" because it is an opinion. Animal fur makes excellent material for clothing so the most logical choice is to make use of that. If someone finds this morally wrong, they have the option to not buy fur coats, and that's fine by me. I just wish people wouldn't force their own moral values upon people who don't think the same way as they do.
Does that mean you think Schindler was wrong for trying to save as many Jews as he could during the Holocaust? After all, he was imposing his beliefs into Hitlers view system, despite the fact that his Morals were not anymore right or wrong than Hitlers.
Hitler was trying to enforce his beliefs upon other people. Schindler was trying to prevent that.
Which means they're BOTH in the wrong according to your viewpoint because both are trying to impose on each others view points. Schindler isn't in any danger, yet he still imposes on Hitlers scheme. Why? Because he has emotion. Why does he have emotion? Because he's a human ****ing being.
Using the same argument you used against me, I can apply it to the debate on killing animals: If someone wants to impose their views on animals by killing them, people who stop them are only trying to prevent the animals deaths. That is the same argument you just gave me, except yours dealt with the deaths of people. You seem to think that people can do whatever they want because it's their own moral code, but this doesn't ring true for killing humans simply because you don't want it to. I can't believe you don't see how distorted your own beliefs are. If you think it's ok for people to follow their own moral code, you can't pick and choose which subjects are allowed to be disregarded. It's all or nothing. Are you going to pick the side which admits your human? Or are you going to admit to us how robotic you are, and finally admit that you have no real emotion.
I argue using logic, not my own emotion. I said that I wish that people wouldn't impose their beliefs upon other PEOPLE. I didn't say that this was a moral belief, I just wish it wasn't the case because it causes inconveniences for me. Killing animals isn't someone trying to impose their beliefs upon me.
I think that being able to argue without having to use emotion is a good trait.
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 02:02:04 AM
Quote from: Trogdor on December 16, 2009, 01:23:55 AM
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 12:02:20 AM
Now as cruel as this may make me sound, I personally think the 'eye for an eye' method seems fair as all hell.
It may seem fair at first, but so does Communism. Personally I believe that, as a human being, you should take the high road and not stoop to his level. It does not solve the problem of pushing sentient beings off bridges by pushing more off.
Ah but it creates fear. Think about it for a moment. I have more to say, but for the moment, just think how people would react to a 'eye for an eye' sentence on just ONE person who tortured an animal to some degree.
I'm surprised no one has quoted Ghandi yet.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
Oh and this has nothing to do with eating meat.I don't know how that got started. Its about a dog thrown off a bridge.
Anyone that owns a dog knows that they show intelligence, loyalty, and make good companions.
Most people who are like "oh that sucks but w.e" Probably have never owned a pet.
Quote from: Grim_Reaper on December 16, 2009, 04:41:23 AM
Holy SH*T!
hope that dog gets its revenge!!
you can see the precise moment when the front right leg snaps on impact!*throws up abit*
i hate people who post shit like this (for people who posted them doing it and people posting it other places to make it more well known)
gees guys! if u see this sh*t, don't post it anywhere else. its disgusting. it makes u as bad as the people doing it.
so don't make other people watch it(i know ur gonna be like.... but i didn't force them too. yeah well peoples curiosity gets the better of them 9/10)
there thats my say
He can do what he wants. He posted it to tell people about this cruel act, nobody made you watch that video, or visit this topic. No he's not as bad as the people who did it! The people who did it threw a dog off a cliff whereas he made a topic showing his disgust. And why did you say 9/10? I hope you weren't rating the video.
@Trogdor: I'm doubting his friend who recorded him got caught, because they don't have any proof of who it really was. The guy was easier to catch because they had his face and voice on camera. The only way the 'accomplice' would be caught is through eye witnesses or if the guy told police who recorded. And I'm doubting either are likely.
I would also like to poke at the subject of how humans are "superior beings to animals" because we can think better than they can... I would compare animals to baby humans. Neither can speak for themselves, neither have the thinking process of adult human beings. In my personal opinion, I think animals are way cuter than human babies. Yet we protect baby humans more than we protect animals or even adult human beings. Because children are innocent and can't speak for themselves.... Just because they're smaller versions of us.
@Chaos: You should've joined the debate team in highschool xP
@Divine: I heard that dolphins were the second smartest, after humans. I'm surprised gorillas or some type of ape isn't up there..
EDIT: I was right, it was Hormel that terribly abused their pigs.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaHmxBEW-Do
I need to warn you, the above video is VERY graphic. It is also a PETA video... So I think the statement at the end that says "If you eat pork, bacon, etc. then you are encouraging this abuse" Well, not everyone treats pigs this way, so that's a little biased and extreme in my opinion....
@trin: chimpanzees are pretty smart... and about the dolphin parrots thing, i had heard ti was parrots dolphin... lemme go look it up :O
edit: i looked it up, and i couldn't find a list, but i found the "top 10" animals that are smart, but in their own way. Dolphins have learned to use tools to protect their nose while foraging, parrots weren't on the list suprisingly :O
crows and ravens were because of their ability to use tools and watch their elders and learn their tricks from them. Dogs, cats, pigs, chimps, and elephants were also on the list
Quote from: Trogdor on December 16, 2009, 03:14:36 AM
Quote from: Chaos on December 16, 2009, 01:30:08 AM
Quote from: Trogdor on December 16, 2009, 01:23:55 AM
It may seem fair at first, but so does Communism.
Do you know anything ABOUT communism? It's actually quite a brilliant system.
I'm sorry, I should have been more specific. I was referring to the countries practicing Communism right now, not the form Karl Marx advocated.
I agree with you there. It is a very ingenious form of government, however the idealisms expressed by Marx cannot exist right now in this type of political climate. Right now it's a great theory, but those countries that practice that form of government are proof of how it can go horribly awry (such as the Marxism-Leninism form of Communism). It will be awhile before the human race achieves "Pure Communism", but until then it's simply an interesting notion.
Back on topic, did anything ever happen to the guy's friends who were videotaping him? Did they get a slap on the wrist for being "accomplices", or were they just ignored overall?
Alright, I'll give you that. Pretty much every country that has attempted communism has also decided to be a censoring, murdering dictatorship. Just wanted the point clarified that those two things do not have to go hand in hand. Far too many idiots in America like to decry and demonize the concept of Communism without ever knowing anything about it. :/
@DT: Eh, I'd have only joined if they had let me gel up my hair into spikes and shout "OBJECTION!" ;P Plus, I debate better over the internet because I have time to consider and type up a response.
Chaos, maybe you and i should start a debate class online :O
chemistry class rolled around and we had a debate over global warming... man did i have fun >:D
I agree with Chaos - communism, in a perfect world, would be the system. The only problem? Humans aren't perfect. We simply aren't going to work harder for the well-being of someone who do not know, nor care about. Years and years of economics have completely and indisputably proven that humans work more efficiently when the promise of instant, self-gratification is the result of their labors.
Oh, and how did we get from animal abuse to economics? :P
I would like to bring into the discussion a term that has been around forever, and is absolutely necessary, I'll even supplement this with some perfect examples. The term I would like to use is commonly called "The Food Chain". There are predators and there are prey. We kill to survive. Be it we kill plants, or animals, we do it to survive. So does almost every other animal on this earth in some degree or fashion. It is in our nature to survive, and we do what is necessary to do it. If it's cold, we kill for fur, if we are hungry, we kill for food. It is all a process that has allowed us all to live for this long. Now, I am going to paint this picture for all of you imagine:
Imagine if humans never existed. I don't want to say we are the supreme animals of the earth, because we have evolved (in a sense) to adapt to our surroundings. So, whipe us out, what happens. Well, first off, all the species of animals that we've fought to protect from going extinct, they are also going with us. North American Bison, they are going to be ruling the North America because the Native Americans wouldn't have killed almost the entire species off, and how many predators are there to kill of a massive two ton bison? Sure, there might be other animals higher in the food chain then them, but we were without a doubt, the biggest predator against them. You see what I'm getting at? We've done what history says we've done, and we've managed to make it this far doing it! Everything happens for a reason.
I'll put this into one final scenario from a show I watched a year ago. Imagine the south west coast of the USA (California, and we'll throw Mexico in there as well for giggles) without sharks. Most of us have grown to fear them, therefor whenever possible (not necessarily whenever necessary) humans, out of fear, may kill them to prevent what they might think as a possible future onslaught. If we removed sharks from the Pacific ocean, does anyone grasp what would happen to marine life? Here, I can paint one picture for you that I know will happen. Kill off all the sharks, now, the next biggest predator in the line that fell directly beneath the sharks, are squid. Down in Mexico, there is an over-abundance of squid, and they will eat you. This show had a segment where some men donned protective suits, jumped the water at night amongst a herd of squid, and induced a feeding frenzy. Had they not had those suits on, they would have been dead in seconds. So kill off the sharks, now we have squid and many other potentially dangerous predators to humans to have to deal with.
What I'm saying is, we have lived this long on a predator/prey system. To make things even better, human compassion has allowed us to realize the mistakes we've made in that system, and work hard to try to recover from them. Hence we why have the "Endangered species list." It's an on-going process that will never end, and I refuse to fight it. I will help when I can (hence my previous contributions and time dedicated to the local ASPCA), but to deny that the system has gotten us this far and insist on changing my beliefs to try and "fight the system" is a waste of my time. All I can hope for, is that in the future, when we as humans become an endangered species, that the predator above us will fight to keep our sorry asses alive.
EDIT: Also, I just want to clarify. Schindler was a war profiteer. Nothing more. In order to be successful at being a war profiteer, you need to maintain your assets. By losing his work-force (the Jews), he was losing money. That is why he kept them, which, out of sheer coincidence, happened to be against Hitler's grand scheme. Did he have compassion for them, sure, as man is capable of showing compassion, but to say that he was the bright and shining star of Germany, it isn't so much compassion, as it was just a coincidence.
Quote from: Chaos on December 15, 2009, 09:31:49 PMEDIT: Lingus, Cactus, settle down, take a deep breathe. We're adults, yes? Let's discuss like them, shall we? No need to get antagonistic. Clarify your positions and get on the same page.
Agreed. I feel like he is being contradictory, but maybe I'm just misunderstanding. There's no point in getting in an argument over nothing.
Edit: I want to make an additional comment. A few people are talking about killing animals to survive, such as for food or fur. I think I have mentioned this already, but it really is not necessary anymore for us to kill animals in order to survive. That whole argument becomes flawed in that light. I think that in the past this was true, but just because we have gotten to this point by doing something does not mean we have to continue it. We got here by killing animals to survive. Now that we have more advanced technology, we should use our superior intelligence that everyone keeps talking about to realize that it is no longer necessary to kill animals to survive. We aren't superior to animals because of this intelligence. But, it does make us more responsible for our actions. Animals don't know or have a way to do things differently. We do.
To add to that, I think it would be unwise to just stop killing animals for food altogether. Part of that is related to Scott's post above. If we stopped killing cows for meat right now, there would be a massive overpopulation. This would probably eventually balance itself out, but since we artificially created this overpopulation, we should definitely correct it somehow. This would go for any other stock animal that we breed for meat. We can't just release them into nature. Not to mention, they have become domesticated. We would need to correct that somehow or continue to care for and feed them (just stop breeding them like crazy).
Anyways, that's my two cents... I know it's not reasonable, but it makes sense to me.
Quote from: Titan on December 16, 2009, 09:43:26 AM
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 02:02:04 AM
Quote from: Trogdor on December 16, 2009, 01:23:55 AM
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 12:02:20 AM
Now as cruel as this may make me sound, I personally think the 'eye for an eye' method seems fair as all hell.
It may seem fair at first, but so does Communism. Personally I believe that, as a human being, you should take the high road and not stoop to his level. It does not solve the problem of pushing sentient beings off bridges by pushing more off.
Ah but it creates fear. Think about it for a moment. I have more to say, but for the moment, just think how people would react to a 'eye for an eye' sentence on just ONE person who tortured an animal to some degree.
I'm surprised no one has quoted Ghandi yet.
"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind"
Oh and this has nothing to do with eating meat.I don't know how that got started. Its about a dog thrown off a bridge.
Anyone that owns a dog knows that they show intelligence, loyalty, and make good companions.
Most people who are like "oh that sucks but w.e" Probably have never owned a pet.
Hell, I own two dogs at the moment. And they're spoiled beyond belief, heh. We have an old big couch that we never use anymore, so both of them use that as their bed. It'll only be a matter of time before they get their own TV.
Quote from: DarkTrinity on December 16, 2009, 11:11:08 AM
It is also a PETA video...
Every time I hear that word now, I laugh. Not because I hate them or anything like that. Glad they're protecting animals from cruelty and bringing it to the light every day..
But every time I hear that word, PETA, I always think of that ad picture they made that had a naked girl with the tag line "I'd rather go naked than wear fur." Smart move.
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 02:14:18 PM
Quote from: DarkTrinity on December 16, 2009, 11:11:08 AM
It is also a PETA video...
Every time I hear that word now, I laugh. Not because I hate them or anything like that. Glad they're protecting animals from cruelty and bringing it to the light every day..
But every time I hear that word, PETA, I always think of that ad picture they made that had a naked girl with the tag line "I'd rather go naked than wear fur." Smart move.
I hate PETA, and surprisingly, I have a similar mindset as them. I think they are just a bunch of extremist idiots. There's plenty of people fighting for animal rights, there's no need for an idiot organization to try and gain attention for their cause by slandering people and making open attacks. We all know they are idiots, there's no need for you to stand there and say "HEY EVERYONE! LOOK AT ME!"
Quote from: Scotty on December 16, 2009, 02:27:34 PM
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 02:14:18 PM
Quote from: DarkTrinity on December 16, 2009, 11:11:08 AM
It is also a PETA video...
Every time I hear that word now, I laugh. Not because I hate them or anything like that. Glad they're protecting animals from cruelty and bringing it to the light every day..
But every time I hear that word, PETA, I always think of that ad picture they made that had a naked girl with the tag line "I'd rather go naked than wear fur." Smart move.
I hate PETA, and surprisingly, I have a similar mindset as them. I think they are just a bunch of extremist idiots. There's plenty of people fighting for animal rights, there's no need for an idiot organization to try and gain attention for their cause by slandering people and making open attacks. We all know they are idiots, there's no need for you to stand there and say "HEY EVERYONE! LOOK AT ME!"
Well, atleast they're trying. Also you gotta admit that ad poster of theirs was pretty clever to catch the eye. Actually I figured you would have atleast 5 copies of it, Scotty. Also to those who don't know what the hell I'm going on about, click this (http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/entertainment/2009/10/19/sexiest-peta-ads?slide=2). May be not safe for work.
Actually, seems I havn't been paying too much attention to PETA. They've done tons of ads like this, as seen in the link above. Note to self: Do research next time.
Quote from: Scotty on December 16, 2009, 02:27:34 PM
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 02:14:18 PM
Quote from: DarkTrinity on December 16, 2009, 11:11:08 AM
It is also a PETA video...
Every time I hear that word now, I laugh. Not because I hate them or anything like that. Glad they're protecting animals from cruelty and bringing it to the light every day..
But every time I hear that word, PETA, I always think of that ad picture they made that had a naked girl with the tag line "I'd rather go naked than wear fur." Smart move.
I hate PETA, and surprisingly, I have a similar mindset as them. I think they are just a bunch of extremist idiots. There's plenty of people fighting for animal rights, there's no need for an idiot organization to try and gain attention for their cause by slandering people and making open attacks. We all know they are idiots, there's no need for you to stand there and say "HEY EVERYONE! LOOK AT ME!"
I agree, they are extreme, but I think the video I posted about the pigs shows a lot about what sometimes goes on. I believe that they don't even approve of eating products from animals either, such as eggs or milk. (correct me if I'm wrong about that)
When they get pissed at Obama for swatting at a fly, that's when you know they're attention whores....
I laugh when I hear PETA, because they ARE just a bunch of attention whores.
Quote from: Chaos on December 16, 2009, 02:43:21 PM
I laugh when I hear PETA, because they ARE just a bunch of attention whores.
Can't deny they're BAD at getting their attention. What with all their playboy models walking about.
Quote from: Chaos on December 16, 2009, 02:43:21 PM
I laugh when I hear PETA, because they ARE just a bunch of attention whores.
Hey now! my great ant was named peta and she was a hurment. Joking offcourse but it always seems like every beliefs have extremists.
Quote from: ARTgames on December 16, 2009, 02:48:05 PM
Quote from: Chaos on December 16, 2009, 02:43:21 PM
I laugh when I hear PETA, because they ARE just a bunch of attention whores.
Hey now! my great ant was named peta and she was a hurment. Joking offcourse but it always seems like every beliefs have extremists.
Of course.. gotta have wackos on every end of the spectrum... :/
Quote from: Pat on December 16, 2009, 09:57:27 AM
Quote from: Grim_Reaper on December 16, 2009, 04:41:23 AM
Holy SH*T!
hope that dog gets its revenge!!
you can see the precise moment when the front right leg snaps on impact!*throws up abit*
i hate people who post shit like this (for people who posted them doing it and people posting it other places to make it more well known)
gees guys! if u see this sh*t, don't post it anywhere else. its disgusting. it makes u as bad as the people doing it.
so don't make other people watch it(i know ur gonna be like.... but i didn't force them too. yeah well peoples curiosity gets the better of them 9/10)
there thats my say
He can do what he wants. He posted it to tell people about this cruel act, nobody made you watch that video, or visit this topic. No he's not as bad as the people who did it! The people who did it threw a dog off a cliff whereas he made a topic showing his disgust. And why did you say 9/10? I hope you weren't rating the video.
No i wasn't rating the video. i was saying that just saying things like that will make people curiousity want to see that clip. and the 9/10 means 9times out of 10
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 02:33:36 PM
Quote from: Scotty on December 16, 2009, 02:27:34 PM
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 02:14:18 PM
Quote from: DarkTrinity on December 16, 2009, 11:11:08 AM
It is also a PETA video...
Every time I hear that word now, I laugh. Not because I hate them or anything like that. Glad they're protecting animals from cruelty and bringing it to the light every day..
But every time I hear that word, PETA, I always think of that ad picture they made that had a naked girl with the tag line "I'd rather go naked than wear fur." Smart move.
I hate PETA, and surprisingly, I have a similar mindset as them. I think they are just a bunch of extremist idiots. There's plenty of people fighting for animal rights, there's no need for an idiot organization to try and gain attention for their cause by slandering people and making open attacks. We all know they are idiots, there's no need for you to stand there and say "HEY EVERYONE! LOOK AT ME!"
Well, atleast they're trying. Also you gotta admit that ad poster of theirs was pretty clever to catch the eye. Actually I figured you would have atleast 5 copies of it, Scotty. Also to those who don't know what the hell I'm going on about, click this (http://www.foxnews.com/slideshow/entertainment/2009/10/19/sexiest-peta-ads?slide=2). May be not safe for work.
Actually, seems I havn't been paying too much attention to PETA. They've done tons of ads like this, as seen in the link above. Note to self: Do research next time.
I've seen them, and I am not surprised they would do that. PETA has a history of annoyances, and they are no different than extremist protesters who make us wonder who was stupid enough to allow free speech in the USA. They harass everyone they can sink their teeth into, and go public with everything, over-exaggerating their points, and doing everything an extremist organization would do. For instance:
Quote from: http://www.peta.org/campaigns/ar-petaonpets.aspWe at PETA very much love the animal companions who share our homes, but we believe that it would have been in the animals' best interests if the institution of "pet keeping"?i.e., breeding animals to be kept and regarded as "pets"?never existed.
Quote from: http://www.peta.org/campaigns/ar-responsiblebreeders.aspMost people know to avoid puppy mills and "backyard" breeders. But many kind individuals fall prey to the picket-fence appeal of so-called "responsible" breeders and fail to recognize that no matter how kindly a breeder treats his or her animals, as long as dogs and cats are dying in animal shelters and pounds because of a lack of homes, no breeding can be considered "responsible."
Quote from: http://www.peta.org/campaigns/ar-feralcats.aspHaving witnessed the painful deaths of countless feral cats instead of seeing them drift quietly "to sleep" in their old age, we cannot in good conscience advocate trapping, altering, and releasing as a humane way to deal with overpopulation and homelessness.
Quote from: http://www.peta.org/feat-abc_campaign.aspThe only way to make our communities "no-kill" is to work toward a "no-birth" nation through legislative measures that mandate spaying or neutering unless a proper permit is purchased, with permit revenues used solely to subsidize sterilization surgeries for low-income families and citizens. For a list of jurisdictions that have passed such laws, please click here.
God knows I agree with a lot of their core values on how to help reduce problems that have arisen, but Dear Lord, could they not have made their points ANY more extreme. They over-exaggerate so much to try and intimidate the world into believing them. They are extremists, there is no other way to put it.
Now, there are plenty of parts about PETA that I absolutely DO NOT AGREE WITH. For instance, the personal attacks they make on people to try and publicly demean them. Some people do have bad practices, but to come out and over-exaggerate what they are doing to try and prove a point is ridiculous. Seriously. To an un-educated eye, it almost seems as those they are against animals, and would rather they die than get placed in good home. They couldn't possibly be any better at taking a very valid point, then making it sound like complete shit.
@Lingus: Just because don't have to eat meat anymore to survive... why does that mean we shouldn't?
We like meat, we can eat it, so why should we all have to stop and move away from it? We need to eat to survive, and eating meat is a means to an end.
Is it because we are cruel to the animals, and therefore if we stopped eating meat, that cruelty will go away? How about we just deal with the cruelty, and continue to eat meat, like some of us want?
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 06:26:00 PM
@Lingus: Just because don't have to eat meat anymore to survive... why does that mean we shouldn't?
We like meat, we can eat it, so why should we all have to stop and move away from it? We need to eat to survive, and eating meat is a means to an end.
Is it because we are cruel to the animals, and therefore if we stopped eating meat, that cruelty will go away? How about we just deal with the cruelty, and continue to eat meat, like some of us want?
How can you continue to eat meat, but discontinue being cruel to the animal... "Oh, it's okay animal, don't worry. I don't want to hurt you. I'm just going to eat you." I hope you see how contradictory that is. You can't kill an animal kindly. The act of killing them and then eating their body is cruel. I think it's fair to say expect people to treat the animals well while they are alive, and to kill them in the least painful way possible. But no matter how you look at it, you are depriving a living being of its life... and for what? So you can eat stuff you like to eat?
Quote from: Lingus on December 16, 2009, 07:01:58 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 06:26:00 PM
@Lingus: Just because don't have to eat meat anymore to survive... why does that mean we shouldn't?
We like meat, we can eat it, so why should we all have to stop and move away from it? We need to eat to survive, and eating meat is a means to an end.
Is it because we are cruel to the animals, and therefore if we stopped eating meat, that cruelty will go away? How about we just deal with the cruelty, and continue to eat meat, like some of us want?
How can you continue to eat meat, but discontinue being cruel to the animal... "Oh, it's okay animal, don't worry. I don't want to hurt you. I'm just going to eat you." I hope you see how contradictory that is. You can't kill an animal kindly. The act of killing them and then eating their body is cruel. I think it's fair to say expect people to treat the animals well while they are alive, and to kill them in the least painful way possible. But no matter how you look at it, you are depriving a living being of its life... and for what? So you can eat stuff you like to eat?
Yes. I will eat it, because I like it, and because it ensures my continued survival. ALL ANIMALS THINK THIS WAY. Why should I have a qualm about killing an animal to eat it, when it would not share the same remorse for me, AT ALL?
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 07:15:28 PM
Quote from: Lingus on December 16, 2009, 07:01:58 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 06:26:00 PM
@Lingus: Just because don't have to eat meat anymore to survive... why does that mean we shouldn't?
We like meat, we can eat it, so why should we all have to stop and move away from it? We need to eat to survive, and eating meat is a means to an end.
Is it because we are cruel to the animals, and therefore if we stopped eating meat, that cruelty will go away? How about we just deal with the cruelty, and continue to eat meat, like some of us want?
How can you continue to eat meat, but discontinue being cruel to the animal... "Oh, it's okay animal, don't worry. I don't want to hurt you. I'm just going to eat you." I hope you see how contradictory that is. You can't kill an animal kindly. The act of killing them and then eating their body is cruel. I think it's fair to say expect people to treat the animals well while they are alive, and to kill them in the least painful way possible. But no matter how you look at it, you are depriving a living being of its life... and for what? So you can eat stuff you like to eat?
Yes. I will eat it, because I like it, and because it ensures my continued survival. ALL ANIMALS THINK THIS WAY. Why should I have a qualm about killing an animal to eat it, when it would not share the same remorse for me, AT ALL?
You don't need to eat meat to survive, many animals do.
I know I don't need to eat meat to survive. I've said/implied that tons of times by now, but everyone just keeps on telling me anyways.
Still, I need to eat something, so why not eat meat? I am a predator on the food chain, and meat is nutrient filled for me, so I will eat it.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 06:26:00 PM
@Lingus: Just because don't have to eat meat anymore to survive... why does that mean we shouldn't?
We like meat, we can eat it, so why should we all have to stop and move away from it? We need to eat to survive, and eating meat is a means to an end.
The means (instilling fear and suffering in creatures) do not justify the end (full stomach and happy tastebuds). As human beings, we are endowed with the freedom of choice. We, in the most egotistical sense,
choose whether an animal lives or dies. This choice is what distinguishes humans from other animals. We can
choose to create peace or suffering with every meal.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 06:26:00 PM
How about we just deal with the cruelty, and continue to eat meat, like some of us want?
More often than not, the path of least resistance is easier to follow than others, but that does not always make it morally/ethically "right". I'm sure if animals could talk, they would
want to live more than you would
want to eat them. It amazes me the extent of human selfishness can reach to gratify one's desires.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 07:15:28 PM
Yes. I will eat it, because I like it, and because it ensures my continued survival. ALL ANIMALS THINK THIS WAY. Why should I have a qualm about killing an animal to eat it, when it would not share the same remorse for me, AT ALL?
Animals don't choose what/when/where they eat. Animals don't have the leisure to think "Hmm...I wonder what's in the fridge today?" or "I wonder if I'm more in the mood for Mexican food or Chinese takeout?". Humans are a very spoiled race, no doubt due to our intelligence of shaping and manipulating the environment around us to cater to our desires. We have the power to choose, the animal in question does not.
Ultimately, the decision on how you wish to dine is your own, Cactuscat, and whichever that may be, I'll respect.
Why? Why do you consider me selfish for eating something that I can, and essentially need?
If an animal could talk, one that was about to eat me, I'm sure it wouldn't bother if I said I wanted to live more than it wanted to eat me. It wouldn't care.
I absolutely love animals, however, I need to eat to survive. Eating meat is one of those ways - the only reason you are telling me that I shouldn't eat meat is because it ends the animals life... that is how nature works! It happens around you on an everyday basis!
EDIT: "The means (instilling fear and suffering in creatures) do not justify the end (full stomach and happy tastebuds)." How is that not justified? Ultimately, I need to eat. I also prefer meat. So why not hit two birds with one stone? Yes - the animals may be grown and raised in a cruel and terrible way, one that I abhor, but I haven't much choice do I? Stopping my consumption of meat isn't so simple.
And aren't I to understand, Lingus, that you still eat meat? I mean, the majority of the people in this topic seem to be people who enjoy meat, yet I'm getting attacked because I'm ending an animal's life by eating it, but no one bothers with anyone else?
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 07:30:59 PM
Why? Why do you consider me selfish for eating something that I can, and essentially need?
I'm not singling you out of the entire human race as a poster child for selfishness. Every human ultimately cares about himself/herself, me included. However, being able to do something does not justify the act. I can murder, steal, etc., but that's no reason to continue it. Lingus has stated many times the proteins and amino acids found in beans and plants fulfill the requirements needed in a person's diet. Truth be told, a hamburger tastes better than a salad. Selfishness stems from
why you make the choice between the burger or salad.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 07:30:59 PM
If an animal could talk, one that was about to eat me, I'm sure it wouldn't bother if I said I wanted to live more than it wanted to eat me. It wouldn't care.
Of course it wouldn't care, because every waking moment of its life is survival. It will see you as an extension of its time here on Earth, not as a tasty treat to enjoy.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 07:30:59 PM
Eating meat is one of those ways - the only reason you are telling me that I shouldn't eat meat is because it ends the animals life... that is how nature works!
You're right, that is how nature works, and it would be completely justifiable if you killed an animal to continue your survival, but let's face it, is this animal's life your
only way to continue living? If you were stranded in the wilderness, it would be. While you sit at your computer, sheltered in a house, your survival via consuming food is not threatened in any way. You pick your meals, when you want, how you want, and where you want, and that is NOT how nature works.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 07:30:59 PM
Yes - the animals may be grown and raised in a cruel and terrible way, one that I abhor, but I haven't much choice do I? Stopping my consumption of meat isn't so simple.
Of course it's not simple. You've been raised on it and have grown to love its taste and smell. It's a comfort in itself, one hard to give up. I do not blame you for not giving it up, but saying you "need" it is not a viable excuse. It's a choice only you can make.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 07:30:59 PM
Stopping my consumption of meat isn't so simple.
I guess this is the crux of the matter. You keep saying you "need" to eat meat, and I think you mean that you need to eat and you need to get certain nutrients from your food. The easiest way for you to do this is to eat meat. I will not argue that fact. I know first hand that it is quite difficult to be vegetarian and still get all of the required nutrients for a balanced diet. As you mentioned, I do eat meat. Though, if I had my ideal situation I would not. The reason I do now is because it is easier. I'll be the first to admit that high ideals are good in theory, but when it comes to real world practice those ideals sometimes have to be compromised. I try to eat as little meat as possible though, and I choose to only eat certain kinds. And at the same time I realize that being vegetarian, one person who doesn't eat meat, does very little. Most people will continue to eat meat and humans will continue to kill animals regardless of what I do. But it would be really nice if we all put our efforts towards vegetarianism. I think we're getting there. There are plenty more options now than there used to be, but it is still very difficult to eat well as a vegetarian.
But, at the same time I will not agree that we should eat meat just because that's how it works. It doesn't have to work that way.
Quote from: Lingus on December 16, 2009, 07:56:09 PM
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 07:30:59 PM
Stopping my consumption of meat isn't so simple.
I guess this is the crux of the matter. You keep saying you "need" to eat meat, and I think you mean that you need to eat and you need to get certain nutrients from your food. The easiest way for you to do this is to eat meat. I will not argue that fact. I know first hand that it is quite difficult to be vegetarian and still get all of the required nutrients for a balanced diet. As you mentioned, I do eat meat. Though, if I had my ideal situation I would not. The reason I do now is because it is easier. I'll be the first to admit that high ideals are good in theory, but when it comes to real world practice those ideals sometimes have to be compromised. I try to eat as little meat as possible though, and I choose to only eat certain kinds. And at the same time I realize that being vegetarian, one person who doesn't eat meat, does very little. Most people will continue to eat meat and humans will continue to kill animals regardless of what I do. But it would be really nice if we all put our efforts towards vegetarianism. I think we're getting there. There are plenty more options now than there used to be, but it is still very difficult to eat well as a vegetarian.
But, at the same time I will not agree that we should eat meat just because that's how it works. It doesn't have to work that way.
What you said is entirely the point I was trying to get across. I wasn't trying to say we should eat meat for the sake of it. That is why I kept mentioning we needed to eat, and eating meat is one of those ways.
Perhaps I was being too defensive, but it felt you were calling my moral code into question. I don't feel it is cruel to kill an animal, if we use it. If that is the way you see it, then that is fine, but I was just stating that I don't believe it to be that.
Yes, should we ever have the opportunity to stop using meat, I would not be opposed. But until the day that it becomes easier to not eat meat, I shall continue with my current lifestyle for already stated reasons.
Look, if you're going to survive, you're going to have to kill. If you eat meat, you'll be killing cows and chickens. If you're a veggie, you'll be killing plants. Just because they cant scream when you pluck them doesn't change that.
You cannot, I repeat, you CANNOT live death free. You're going to kill something if you want to eat. So to those saying you're a vegetarian because you don't want to kill, well you're killing plants. Infact, sometimes plants can stay alive after you've plucked them from the ground. You're eating a plant alive in that salad of yours. Now doesn't that make you feel like a douche? I think I'd rather eat something that's already dead thanks.
Look, if you like meat, eat meat. If you like meat but don't like killing, then too bad. Suck it up and eat for christ's sake. Weither it's a plant, or something that can actually move around, you're going to kill if you want to eat. I understand people being vegetarians because plants are more plentiful than any other living thing, but what about bugs? Why don't you eat bugs? Those are plentiful. And why do you think we have farms?
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 08:11:40 PM
If you're a veggie, you'll be killing plants.
You pick the fruit in many cases, you don't kill the whole plant at all. The only exception would be underground plants like Carrots and Potatoes.
True, but it's kinda hard to live off of fruit it's self. Most of the time people mix fruit with their veggies, ect ect. Much like how people will eat steak with a veggie side of sorts. Not killing as MUCH, but it's still killing mind you.
And imagine if you don't like fruit? What if you're one of those people? Can't just starve yourself.
I agree with everything in your post except for a few things.
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 08:11:40 PM
Look, if you're going to survive, you're going to have to kill. If you eat meat, you'll be killing cows and chickens. If you're a veggie, you'll be killing plants. Just because they cant scream when you pluck them doesn't change that.
Yes, killing a plant is the same as killing an animal. Death is death. However, the suffering generated from killing an animal is far greater than that of a plant. This is the reason why I choose to eat only a plant-based diet, along with the plant's nuts, seeds, etc.
Scientists have actually been able to measure the amount of distress a plant is in while it's being cut. It is a very minute amount, but if you were to hook that same apparatus to an animal it would measure off the scale.
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 08:11:40 PMNow doesn't that make you feel like a douche? I think I'd rather eat something that's already dead thanks.
That's your choice, however I would rather eat something that's lived a life never knowing suffering until the moment it is eaten. An animal suffers its whole life up to its death.
Quote from: Red October on December 16, 2009, 08:17:57 PM
You pick the fruit in many cases, you don't kill the whole plant at all. The only exception would be underground plants like Carrots and Potatoes.
I was about to make this argument until I saw RedOctober's reply. Many plants rely on animals to consume them to perpetuate their species through seed distribution.
Yeah I'm mainly going on about people wanting to live a DEATH FREE life style, which is nearly impossible. Something will always die, weither it feels pain for hours, or minutes, or just seconds.
Quote from: Trogdor on December 16, 2009, 08:30:47 PM
An animal suffers its whole life up to its death.
That is based on the assumption that all animals raised for human consumption are raised the same way.
You should also note many thousands of innocent animals are killed each year in the harvesting of wheat and other plant products, specifically from combines. These animals get crushed and torn up, it is terrible, but no one ever brings this up. The amount is obviously smaller than the number of animals killed for human consumption, but the main difference is that these are small animals that get killed brutally, but we don't use them for anything. Whereas, with the animals we slaughter, we actually use. Just thought I would throw this thought up here.
EDIT: I should note too, that obviously we feed a huge amount of grain to animals raised for slaughter as well.
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 08:11:40 PM
Look, if you're going to survive, you're going to have to kill. If you eat meat, you'll be killing cows and chickens. If you're a veggie, you'll be killing plants. Just because they cant scream when you pluck them doesn't change that.
You cannot, I repeat, you CANNOT live death free. You're going to kill something if you want to eat. So to those saying you're a vegetarian because you don't want to kill, well you're killing plants. Infact, sometimes plants can stay alive after you've plucked them from the ground. You're eating a plant alive in that salad of yours. Now doesn't that make you feel like a douche? I think I'd rather eat something that's already dead thanks.
Look, if you like meat, eat meat. If you like meat but don't like killing, then too bad. Suck it up and eat for christ's sake. Weither it's a plant, or something that can actually move around, you're going to kill if you want to eat. I understand people being vegetarians because plants are more plentiful than any other living thing, but what about bugs? Why don't you eat bugs? Those are plentiful. And why do you think we have farms?
Oh come on... this is just silly now. Plants don't feel pain. They don't have brains. It's not the same thing. You can go on and on this way. You are killing billions of bacteria right now, just by breathing. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP BREATHING!!! YOU'RE A MASS MURDERER! This line of argument is pretty ridiculous. I know you were trying to make a point, but there's a definite line here. Killing a plant is not the same as killing an animal.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 08:35:59 PM
That is based on the assumption that all animals raised for human consumption are raised the same way.
You're right, not all farms are factory farms, but the majority of our animals in the USA come from factory farms. This is not an assumption, but a fact.
Quote from: Cactuscat222 on December 16, 2009, 08:35:59 PM
You should also note many thousands of innocent animals are killed each year in the harvesting of wheat and other plant products, specifically from combines. These animals get crushed and torn up, it is terrible, but no one ever brings this up. The amount is obviously smaller than the number of animals killed for human consumption, but the main difference is that these are small animals that get killed brutally, but we don't use them for anything. Whereas, with the animals we slaughter, we actually use. Just thought I would throw this thought up here.
This is partly why I buy my produce at local farmer's markets, where many of these small farms either couldn't afford or wouldn't need a combine due to their small land size. Obviously insects will still die when harvesting, but, once again, there would be much less suffering than a commercial farm.
You could make the same argument saying washing your hands kills bacteria, which is blatant murder. I'm still selfish enough to kill them for my own health. Even if I were to kill myself to prevent any further suffering, the pro-biotics living in my intestines would die. It really is impossible to live without creating suffering in your wake, but you can control the amount.
Quote from: Lingus on December 16, 2009, 08:48:51 PM
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 08:11:40 PM
Look, if you're going to survive, you're going to have to kill. If you eat meat, you'll be killing cows and chickens. If you're a veggie, you'll be killing plants. Just because they cant scream when you pluck them doesn't change that.
You cannot, I repeat, you CANNOT live death free. You're going to kill something if you want to eat. So to those saying you're a vegetarian because you don't want to kill, well you're killing plants. Infact, sometimes plants can stay alive after you've plucked them from the ground. You're eating a plant alive in that salad of yours. Now doesn't that make you feel like a douche? I think I'd rather eat something that's already dead thanks.
Look, if you like meat, eat meat. If you like meat but don't like killing, then too bad. Suck it up and eat for christ's sake. Weither it's a plant, or something that can actually move around, you're going to kill if you want to eat. I understand people being vegetarians because plants are more plentiful than any other living thing, but what about bugs? Why don't you eat bugs? Those are plentiful. And why do you think we have farms?
Oh come on... this is just silly now. Plants don't feel pain. They don't have brains. It's not the same thing. You can go on and on this way. You are killing billions of bacteria right now, just by breathing. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP BREATHING!!! YOU'RE A MASS MURDERER! This line of argument is pretty ridiculous. I know you were trying to make a point, but there's a definite line here. Killing a plant is not the same as killing an animal.
Once again, my point flew right over your head, never said that a plant feels pain when It's killed. Yes I did say that a plant can sometimes be alive when plucked and sometimes even when it's put in a salad, but I never said it could feel pain, well not alot anyways. Some people out there are so god damn paranoid that they don't want to kill ANYTHING. However, something will die depending on what you eat, regardless of what it is. A plant will die, an animal will die. No matter if it feels pain or not.
I'm pointing out those out there who are so damn worried about killing something they'd eat shit if there wern't any plants. All I'm saying is that something will die in the end. Get over it, and eat meat if you really want to.
Ya know what I just realized? Thank God we have farms and butchers. I'll be the first one to outright say it. Thank the almighty lord we have people who are regulating the lives of cows, chickens, turkey's, pigs, deer, etc... Could you imagine this current scenario with how much meat we consume, and not regulate the animals? It would seriously be the wild west all over again with the Native American's coming close to killing off the North American Bison! We'd be out of meat in a year!
Speaking of bison, I was so intrigued at Vons the other day when I was picking up 3 pounds of bacon and 2 pounds of ground sausage for a sausage explosion, when I saw a slab of ground bison meat. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I thought bison were protected animals, so I wasn't expecting to see bison meat! Anyone ever have some? I've had lots of different meas before when hunting. Elk, Venison, Moose, but never bison. I picked up a thing or two, might make some burgers tomorrow out of them.
Quote from: Scotty on December 16, 2009, 10:03:28 PM
Ya know what I just realized? Thank God we have farms and butchers. I'll be the first one to outright say it. Thank the almighty lord we have people who are regulating the lives of cows, chickens, turkey's, pigs, deer, etc... Could you imagine this current scenario with how much meat we consume, and not regulate the animals? It would seriously be the wild west all over again with the Native American's coming close to killing off the North American Bison! We'd be out of meat in a year!
Speaking of bison, I was so intrigued at Vons the other day when I was picking up 3 pounds of bacon and 2 pounds of ground sausage for a sausage explosion, when I saw a slab of ground bison meat. I couldn't believe what I was seeing. I thought bison were protected animals, so I wasn't expecting to see bison meat! Anyone ever have some? I've had lots of different meas before when hunting. Elk, Venison, Moose, but never bison. I picked up a thing or two, might make some burgers tomorrow out of them.
Now you're making me !@#$ing hungry.
To coincide with my theory above, lets look at the polar opposite scenario. Let's say Lingus's ultimate goal is achieved, and we all took on a total state of vegetarianism. Can we grasp how swiftly we are going to get over-ran by these animals we would normally consume. Think of it like this. Every year, back in my home state of Michigan, a certain amount of licenses are sold to hunters to hunt deer. That number is based off of studies done to determine the over-population of deer, thus regulating how many there are, as to prevent too many from say... Running out in the road and killing drivers, and to also ensure that they don't become endangered.
We've all heard theories of how quickly we humans are going to become over-populated in the world. Numbers are increasing every second, and dying off at a much lower rate. Now relate that to animals we would normally consume. We currently have to regulate them because if we didn't, they would die off. If we went to total vegetarianism, they would over-run us, and we'd still have to regulate them, by killing them off. Only now, we're killing to keep us humans alive, not for some practical use like regulating them, and benefiting from the regulation with say, food.
Quote from: Scotty on December 16, 2009, 10:14:27 PM
To coincide with my theory above, lets look at the polar opposite scenario. Let's say Lingus's ultimate goal is achieved, and we all took on a total state of vegetarianism. Can we grasp how swiftly we are going to get over-ran by these animals we would normally consume. Think of it like this. Every year, back in my home state of Michigan, a certain amount of licenses are sold to hunters to hunt deer. That number is based off of studies done to determine the over-population of deer, thus regulating how many there are, as to prevent too many from say... Running out in the road and killing drivers, and to also ensure that they don't become endangered.
We've all heard theories of how quickly we humans are going to become over-populated in the world. Numbers are increasing every second, and dying off at a much lower rate. Now relate that to animals we would normally consume. We currently have to regulate them because if we didn't, they would die off. If we went to total vegetarianism, they would over-run us, and we'd still have to regulate them, by killing them off. Only now, we're killing to keep us humans alive, not for some practical use like regulating them, and benefiting from the regulation with say, food.
That theory only holds true if humans were the only predator in that area of deer. The relationship between predator-prey is natural, and is only thrown out of balance when humans introduce a species to an area to which there are no predators that eat them, or breed them for food, pets, etc. Another way that could lead to an inbalance is by killing a species that is a danger to us, such as sharks, which would lead to an increase in the shark's prey.
The world got along fine without humans for eons. Do you really believe nature can't take care of itself?
QuoteThe world got along fine without humans for eons. Do you really believe nature can't take care of itself?
Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw).
Quote from: LeGuy on December 16, 2009, 10:42:44 PM
QuoteThe world got along fine without humans for eons. Do you really believe nature can't take care of itself?
Link (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eScDfYzMEEw).
I can't believe you just linked one of my favorite comedians. For some reason I've never seen this one. :D
Quote from: Trogdor on December 16, 2009, 10:33:50 PM
The world got along fine without humans for eons. Do you really believe nature can't take care of itself?
That's not really what I was getting at with my post. What I was trying to say is that we are a natural predator to many animals. We like to play smart with a lot of our predatorial (if that's even a word) instincts by eating our prey. Now say we cut in half what we play the predator role over (ie animals), we now just opened a giant can of disruption to the natural balance of what we've worked to achieve. We strive to maintain balance with the animals that we eat. We regulate cows, pigs, chickens. Once we stop regulating them, they will grow with us. Perfect example would be India. They don't eat beef. They consider cows God-like figures. You therefor have cows roaming the streets. You literally have cows in the streets where people travel on. Humans won't touch them, as that is some sort of sacrilegious act. Now twist that a little bit for our case here. If we aren't eating the cows, sure there will be other predators, but we are by far the biggest predator over them. If we co-exist with them (not die off like you suggested) but discontinue regulating them, in the distant future, it's going to start to get a little hairy.
Quote from: Scotty on December 16, 2009, 11:04:29 PM
Quote from: Trogdor on December 16, 2009, 10:33:50 PM
The world got along fine without humans for eons. Do you really believe nature can't take care of itself?
That's not really what I was getting at with my post. What I was trying to say is that we are a natural predator to many animals. We like to play smart with a lot of our predatorial (if that's even a word) instincts by eating our prey. Now say we cut in half what we play the predator role over (ie animals), we now just opened a giant can of disruption to the natural balance of what we've worked to achieve. We strive to maintain balance with the animals that we eat. We regulate cows, pigs, chickens. Once we stop regulating them, they will grow with us.
You make it seem like all of these animals only have one predator: humans. The next predator in the food chain will take over and regulate their species. Since there will be an abundance of food, the predators' numbers will grow. After the prey has diminished, many predators will starve as a result, or move on to other areas. As a result of lack of predators in the area, the prey population will increase, and so on and so forth.
Quote from: Scotty on December 16, 2009, 11:04:29 PM
Perfect example would be India. They don't eat beef. They consider cows God-like figures. You therefor have cows roaming the streets. You literally have cows in the streets where people travel on.
Not to be blunt, but that's the complete opposite of a perfect example. The main reason why there are numerous cows in India are the absence of their predators (including humans). The towns and cities in which they roam are free of other predators, as they are dangerous to humans as well. This creates a haven of sorts for them. That accompanied by an abundance of food "provided" by the people (the cows there often meander through markets eating whatever they fancy, and to shoo one away is considered a sin) is the reason for their huge population.
Any species' population will grow if there are no predators and an abundance of food. There would not be anywhere near as much cows in India if they were forbidden to enter the areas where people live.
In America, cows are not held in such high regard, and the idea of them roaming our cities is laughable, the whole country being vegetarian or not. As a result, this excess of prey will be moved out into the wild, where, believe it or not, other predators will happily consume. Cow problem solved.
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 16, 2009, 09:53:33 PMSome people out there are so god damn paranoid that they don't want to kill ANYTHING.
Actually, I think you've missed the point here. No one in this topic feels that way so why even bring it up. This topic is about animal suffering. Not the killing of any and all types of organic life forms. Sure, there are some people that feel the way you have described, but it's kind of off point for the discussion.
Quote from: Scotty on December 16, 2009, 10:14:27 PM
To coincide with my theory above, lets look at the polar opposite scenario. Let's say Lingus's ultimate goal is achieved, and we all took on a total state of vegetarianism. Can we grasp how swiftly we are going to get over-ran by these animals we would normally consume. Think of it like this. Every year, back in my home state of Michigan, a certain amount of licenses are sold to hunters to hunt deer. That number is based off of studies done to determine the over-population of deer, thus regulating how many there are, as to prevent too many from say... Running out in the road and killing drivers, and to also ensure that they don't become endangered.
We've all heard theories of how quickly we humans are going to become over-populated in the world. Numbers are increasing every second, and dying off at a much lower rate. Now relate that to animals we would normally consume. We currently have to regulate them because if we didn't, they would die off. If we went to total vegetarianism, they would over-run us, and we'd still have to regulate them, by killing them off. Only now, we're killing to keep us humans alive, not for some practical use like regulating them, and benefiting from the regulation with say, food.
Btw, I did point that out briefly in my post. Though I think it would reach some kind of equilibrium after a period of time. We could continue to use animals for there meat, but stop breeding them in such high numbers. Once their population reaches a critical low number we could just let them be and they would breed and die off on their own. Throw in the fact that we would no longer be protecting them from any natural predators and the populations would be self regulating. It's probably more complicated being that I've over-simplified the process... but you get the point.
In case anyone hasn't noticed yet: We are are natural predators, and we are helping keep populations in check, just like any other animal. What's the problem?
Quote from: Lingus on December 16, 2009, 11:49:46 PM
This topic is about animal suffering. Not the killing of any and all types of organic life forms.
Lingus we've been switching between topics for the past 3 pages of this thread now, just so you know.. All consisting of either animal cruelty, killing animals for no reason in a cruel MANNER, (which is what I was going on about), and the whole thing on how eating meat is bad or something like that, anyways. And no, I don't count the time where Phoenix Wright was brought up.
Quote from: Lingus on December 16, 2009, 11:49:46 PM
No one in this topic feels that way so why even bring it up. Sure, there are some people that feel the way you have described, but it's kind of off point for the discussion.
I wasn't aware you could read minds. I don't recall anyone saying they felt the way I described them. "But I just said that", you may be asking yourself. But that's where I make my point at. "I don't recall anyone SAYING they felt the way I described them." Some people like to keep some of their opinions to themselves you know. I'm just giving my personal answer to that opinion on paranoid vegetarians that maybe lurking in this thread. They don't have to respond.
Who knows, maybe you like rape and you don't want to give out your opinion. So here's my opinion on that matter...It's bad. I'm just !@#$ing around with you here obviously, but sometimes I like to answer those questions that people don't like to bring into the daylight, no matter how it may make them feel when I do bring it up, while at the same time giving my opinion on a similar matter at hand.
Also does it really matter that I jumped somewhat off topic? We've been doing it for quite a while now. We went from a dude dropping a dog off of a bridge, to Phoenix Wright at some point.
As for Chaos who so RUDELY stole my reply space (shame shame Chaos), I agree.
if you have noticed, most predators have their eyes on the front of their head, take lions, tigers, HUMANS, bears, wolves (few exceptions like predatorial fish (sharks)), and that most prey have their eyes on the sides of their heads, like birds, squirrels, gophers, dear, mice, small fish, shrimp, (with other few exceptions like ostriges or however it is spelt), nature made us this way
Quote from: DivineLegend on December 17, 2009, 12:54:00 AM
if you have noticed, most predators have their eyes on the front of their head, take lions, tigers, HUMANS, bears, wolves (few exceptions like predatorial fish (sharks)), and that most prey have their eyes on the sides of their heads, like birds, squirrels, gophers, dear, mice, small fish, shrimp, (with other few exceptions like ostriges or however it is spelt), nature made us this way
We also have molars for grinding plant cellulose, a sorry excuse for "claws", a much longer digestive track, and we greatly lack in strength and agility when compared to other predators. The only reason we are able to
be a predator is through the use of tools to aid us. The most we could kill and eat with our bare hands are insects and other small creatures, such as lizards.
Also, we are the only predator that acts like a scavenger after we kill our meat. When a gazelle is killed by a lion, it's flesh is still flushed with oxygen-rich blood, providing the cells with the necessary component to continue its life processes, such as cellular respiration, if only for a very short while. We on the other hand cook our meat, killing it in the process, and then consume it. A predator prefers fresh meat to dead. We prefer dead meat to fresh.
This is not to say that we're not omnivores. We are able to live off of meat, probably due to the ice age humanity experienced, and had to adapt to a new eating lifestyle as many vegetation had died. We have the best of both worlds, in other words.
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 17, 2009, 12:27:35 AM
I wasn't aware you could read minds. I don't recall anyone saying they felt the way I described them.
Quit being a chode.
Oh come on Scotty, you really think this conversation was going to stay mature? Nonsense! A dick comment must be placed here and now.
Alright yeah, my apologies. Sides', I'm sure Lingus can handle one little douche comment...Or any other douche comment that I posted past page number 1 on this thread.
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 17, 2009, 02:50:20 AM
Oh come on Scotty, you really think this conversation was going to stay mature? Nonsense! A dick comment must be placed here and now.
Alright yeah, apologies. Sides', I'm sure Lingus can handle one little douche comment...Or any other douche comment that I posted past page number 1 on this thread.
I wish you would stfu already, we all know your being a chode here, as scotty already pointed out.
Quote from: DarkBlade325
I wasn't aware you could read minds. I don't recall anyone saying they felt the way I described them. "But I just said that", you may be asking yourself. But that's where I make my point at. "I don't recall anyone SAYING they felt the way I described them." Some people like to keep some of their opinions to themselves you know. I'm just giving my personal answer to that opinion on paranoid vegetarians that maybe lurking in this thread. They don't have to respond
I'm sorry but you really have no right speaking for everyone else and you should just drop that !@$@ right now.
Sure you can have your opinion but then maybe you should think if its the right thing or not to introduce your opinion into these forums like this...
Quote from: DarkBlade-something-something
I like to answer those questions that people don't like to bring into the daylight
That's nice and all...but in all honesty who really asked what your hobbies were...
....now back to the main post it's self, I agree that this guy should be locked up in prison for more then a year atleast, but I'm sure glad the dog was okay, no one deserves something cruel like that done to them, even if it's of another species.
If we are able to live off eating meat/vegetation who cares how we get it? We need these things to live. I'm not saying i support the slaughter houses who use cruel methods, I'm just saying that either way we are going to eat it.. Either way an 'innocent' animal is going to be dead no matter how the slaughter's kill them. I know that sounds bad but it's true, and just be glad we don't have to see them being killed/tortured, because if the slaughters'/butchers didn't exist, we would have to do it ourself.
Quote from: stick d00d on December 17, 2009, 09:56:56 AM
If we are able to live off eating meat/vegetation who cares how we get it? We need these things to live.
This is the idea we're discussing here. We are able to live off of both, which allows us to make a conscious decision to choose one or the other based on purely ethical reasons.
Quote from: stick d00d on December 17, 2009, 09:56:56 AM
I'm not saying i support the slaughter houses who use cruel methods, I'm just saying that either way we are going to eat it..
You make it sound like we have no choice but to eat meat. Also, if you buy your meat from a slaughterhouse, you're supporting it with your money. Just thought I'd point that out.
Quote from: Trogdor on December 17, 2009, 01:18:01 AM
Quote from: DivineLegend on December 17, 2009, 12:54:00 AM
if you have noticed, most predators have their eyes on the front of their head, take lions, tigers, HUMANS, bears, wolves (few exceptions like predatorial fish (sharks)), and that most prey have their eyes on the sides of their heads, like birds, squirrels, gophers, dear, mice, small fish, shrimp, (with other few exceptions like ostriges or however it is spelt), nature made us this way
We also have molars for grinding plant cellulose, a sorry excuse for "claws", a much longer digestive track, and we greatly lack in strength and agility when compared to other predators. The only reason we are able to be a predator is through the use of tools to aid us. The most we could kill and eat with our bare hands are insects and other small creatures, such as lizards.
Also, we are the only predator that acts like a scavenger after we kill our meat. When a gazelle is killed by a lion, it's flesh is still flushed with oxygen-rich blood, providing the cells with the necessary component to continue its life processes, such as cellular respiration, if only for a very short while. We on the other hand cook our meat, killing it in the process, and then consume it. A predator prefers fresh meat to dead. We prefer dead meat to fresh.
This is not to say that we're not omnivores. We are able to live off of meat, probably due to the ice age humanity experienced, and had to adapt to a new eating lifestyle as many vegetation had died. We have the best of both worlds, in other words.
thus is true as well, but our minds is what makes us a predator, a lion will use its speed and strength, a bear just uses his jaws as he catches salmon coming up a river, we use the guns that we invented using our minds. if you look at other apes though, they have the molars for grinding plants, but some eat meat as well.
and if we really wanted to, we could also eat meat raw. It would have had to been a choice back when fire was discovered to keep eating meat raw to keep up our immunity systems to what could be drawn into our bodies during the process of eating raw meat, but would could if we really wanted to. Hell, i could start eating raw meat right now and eventually be able to eat it all the time. But due to personal (humans, not just me) taste, we prefer to eat our meat cooked
Quote from: DivineLegend on December 17, 2009, 11:21:43 AM
thus is true as well, but our minds is what makes us a predator, a lion will use its speed and strength, a bear just uses his jaws as he catches salmon coming up a river, we use the guns that we invented using our minds. if you look at other apes though, they have the molars for grinding plants, but some eat meat as well.
and if we really wanted to, we could also eat meat raw. It would have had to been a choice back when fire was discovered to keep eating meat raw to keep up our immunity systems to what could be drawn into our bodies during the process of eating raw meat, but would could if we really wanted to. Hell, i could start eating raw meat right now and eventually be able to eat it all the time. But due to personal (humans, not just me) taste, we prefer to eat our meat cooked
You do have a point there, however I disagree with you on eating meat raw. Many people can get food poisoning simply from meat being undercooked, let alone raw. The reason for this is that our stomach acid's pH level is slightly more alkaline than other predators. This slight alkalinity is just enough to prevent some parasites and bacteria found in the meat from dying, and as a result we become sick. It would take many more years of evolution to once again eat our meat raw.
Quote from: Trogdor on December 17, 2009, 11:38:27 AM
Quote from: DivineLegend on December 17, 2009, 11:21:43 AM
thus is true as well, but our minds is what makes us a predator, a lion will use its speed and strength, a bear just uses his jaws as he catches salmon coming up a river, we use the guns that we invented using our minds. if you look at other apes though, they have the molars for grinding plants, but some eat meat as well.
and if we really wanted to, we could also eat meat raw. It would have had to been a choice back when fire was discovered to keep eating meat raw to keep up our immunity systems to what could be drawn into our bodies during the process of eating raw meat, but would could if we really wanted to. Hell, i could start eating raw meat right now and eventually be able to eat it all the time. But due to personal (humans, not just me) taste, we prefer to eat our meat cooked
You do have a point there, however I disagree with you on eating meat raw. Many people can get food poisoning simply from meat being undercooked, let alone raw. The reason for this is that our stomach acid's pH level is slightly more alkaline than other predators. This slight alkalinity is just enough to prevent some parasites and bacteria found in the meat from dying, and as a result we become sick. It would take many more years of evolution to once again eat our meat raw.
true, but if some little kid were to start eating raw meat, i believe he/she would be able to eat raw meat their whole life... IDK since it hasn't been tested, and it is something i don't plan on testing on someone, but i think with a little time, someone could eat raw meat. given they start with only a little bit of meat at first, not eating a whole meal of it, 3 meals a day
Quote from: DivineLegend on December 17, 2009, 01:01:59 PM
true, but if some little kid were to start eating raw meat, i believe he/she would be able to eat raw meat their whole life... IDK since it hasn't been tested, and it is something i don't plan on testing on someone, but i think with a little time, someone could eat raw meat. given they start with only a little bit of meat at first, not eating a whole meal of it, 3 meals a day
I agree with you, but to a certain extent. The child's body may be more adapted to eating raw meat than another human, but he will still be subject to many of the negative consequences derived from eating meat raw.
Evolution is the result of slight mutations in the DNA of a living being, and these slight mutations can either be something that aids them or hinders them in their survival on this planet. The ones that carry a crippling genetic mutation have a decreased chance of living long enough to pass on their genetic trait to future offspring, while the ones possessing a beneficial mutation have an increased chance of passing on that trait. This natural selection is what helps animals adapt to their environment.
This situation can be applied to your hypothetical child. Through natural selection, he will be better adapted to eating raw meat because of the many generations of his ancestors doing the same. He will be the product of failed mutations (such as dull, flat teeth) that did not make it into his DNA, and successful mutations (such as a lower pH stomach acidity) that have been strengthened over time.
Quote from: DarkBlade325 on December 17, 2009, 02:50:20 AM
Oh come on Scotty, you really think this conversation was going to stay mature? Nonsense! A dick comment must be placed here and now.
Alright yeah, my apologies. Sides', I'm sure Lingus can handle one little douche comment...Or any other douche comment that I posted past page number 1 on this thread.
Meh... I'll get over it.
Wow just saw that vid, pretty damn sick...didn't read the entire thread cuz I'm in a rush, so I don't know if it has been said already, it's not german, sounds something like swedish or dutch... can't tell for sure... And yea good the dog survived!
Pfft. Racist.
I think this whole topic can be concluded by saying: If you are going to throw something off a 50 foot bridge, make sure it is Canadian.
Good day to you, folks.
Quote from: foG on December 17, 2009, 03:20:56 PM
Wow just saw that vid, pretty damn sick...didn't read the entire thread cuz I'm in a rush, so I don't know if it has been said already, it's not german, sounds something like swedish or dutch... can't tell for sure... And yea good the dog survived!
I'm going to assume he speaked Lithuanian... being as that's where the guy was from...
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on December 17, 2009, 04:10:15 PM
I think this whole topic can be concluded by saying: If you are going to throw something off a 50 foot bridge, make sure it is Canadian.
Good day to you, folks.
I will have to watch myself.
what a way to throw a dog off of a bridge but ive seen better. 7/10
Quote from: runeskap master117 on December 17, 2009, 08:18:13 PM
what a way to throw a dog off of a bridge but ive seen better. 7/10
No.
Quote from: EpicPhailure on December 17, 2009, 08:30:35 PM
Quote from: runeskap master117 on December 17, 2009, 08:18:13 PM
what a way to throw a dog off of a bridge but ive seen better. 7/10
No.
what you think it deserves an 8? maybe if he did a flip or two but i didnt see any flips
Troll elsewhere.
im just joking 8)
Speaking of PETA:
(http://punditkitchen.files.wordpress.com/2009/12/political-pictures-peta-protesters-delicious-chickens.jpg)
Haha! That's great. They're protesting KFC while eating a bucket of KFC!!! Awesome!
Quote from: Lingus on December 18, 2009, 01:47:18 PM
Haha! That's great. They're protesting KFC while eating a bucket of KFC!!! Awesome!
Either that or a bunch of angry PETA members are confronting an innocent and unsuspecting fat man by circling him....ANGRY MOB!
Off-topic Sidenote: KFC
SUCKS as compared to Popeyes!
...And Popeye's sucks compared to Bojangles!
Quote from: Mr Pwnage on December 18, 2009, 02:35:57 PM
Quote from: Lingus on December 18, 2009, 01:47:18 PM
Haha! That's great. They're protesting KFC while eating a bucket of KFC!!! Awesome!
Either that or a bunch of angry PETA members are confronting an innocent and unsuspecting fat man by circling him....ANGRY MOB!
Or an angry fat guy came to confront a bunch of innocent PETA members? "YOU CAN PRY THIS DRUMSTICK OUT OF MY GREASY, DEAD HAND!!!"
Is it just me or does the guy holding the sign look like hes going to snatch some of that chicken? (and lol at the anti KFC black guy)
Quote from: stick d00d on December 18, 2009, 09:31:29 PM
Is it just me or does the guy holding the sign look like hes going to snatch some of that chicken? (and lol at the anti KFC black guy)
He looks like he's disgusted at him eating the chicken. The guy eating the chicken looks like he was dared to do it or something because he looks like hes about to laugh. Also look at the guy behind the black guy, hahahaha.