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For a while now, I've been contemplating certain philosophical and theoretical dilemmas in my head. I have yet to really voice any of these thoughts (maybe once or twice), but I do so now to see if I can reach some kind of conclusion or just a little more knowledge on the ideas I present. I also hope that this topic might spawn some healthy debate regarding these ideas, which no doubt have probably been shared by many of you too.

The first dilemma I face revolves around this question: What would it take to resurrect someone? Lets start with what we know. We know our mind is the result of millions of brain cells, comprised of neurons that fire messages along synapses to basically communicate very complex messages. These chemical reactions inside our brain create what we know to be as consciousness. So what exactly is consciousness? Why am I me and not you? Could we all be one consciousness trying to comprehend itself? If my consciousness exists now, whats stopping it from existing trillions of years in the future or possibly in the past? After all, energy never dies, only changes form. If you quantum entangled all the atoms in my brain, would I exist in two places at once? If so, would I be a single consciousness or two equally aware beings that make the same decisions. It's all very confusing, and at this point in time, impossible to really know the answers to these questions. Fortunately, I don't believe this topic is in vain, because I think there is ample room for exploration of these ideas through debate.

The idea that has plagued me the absolute most when it comes to understanding consciousness, is what exactly makes me me and you you? I'm not talking about personality, I'm talking about individual ID's of consciousness. If we were to take the right half of the brain, copy it atom for atom, then replace the original right half with the copied right half, would you still be the same person?

Your brain would be functioning exactly the same, but would there be a different ID of consciousness arising from inside that brain?

Now lets take the experiment a little further. What if we copied the left half of the brain, and replaced the original left half with the copied left half? Now the original brain is completely gone and in place you have a clone, yet at all times it has continued to function as the same person and the person holding that brain would never know they were a copy. Do the copied brains hold a new ID of consciousness that simply functions exactly like the old consciousness did, or is it the exact same ID of consciousness as it used to be? If they do hold a new consciousness, at what point does the old consciousness cease to exist?

I think I'll just leave it at that for today. I have many more questions that plague my mind, but posting all of them at once would bog down the topic a little too much.

Don't drink and drive..
Just smoke and fly... oh wait..
talk some rly unnessessary stuff in a forum where 90% dont know what a synapse is

Quote from: DNH on November 09, 2011, 03:36:34 PM
Don't drink and drive..
Just smoke and fly... oh wait..
talk some rly unnessessary stuff in a forum where 90% dont know what a synapse is

This forum is full of very smart people, otherwise I wouldn't even think of posting this here.

ok, ima follow this thread :)

But to be honest: Those questions.. I couldnt answer them ^^ Too phylosophic

Quote from: Jake on November 09, 2011, 03:33:33 PM
What would it take to resurrect someone?

Manual restoration of dead tissue.  As soon as blood stops pumping, tissue begins to decay (well, technically it begins to decay as soon as blood flow is retarded, not when it stops outright).  Decay enough and it fails to function which means death.  Once you can reanimate or restore the dead tissue with live tissue so that it functions again, theoretically you can bring back life.

... Or at least that's what Mel Brook's Young Frankenstein taught me, and that movie was too damn funny to not be true.

In seriousness though, this topic delves into a certain level of neurology that even the world's brightest minds (no pun in intended) have been trying to discover for decades.  Heck, we can't even justify sleep fully when it comes to the brain's natural requirement for it.  I don't imagine anyone here is able to dissect the cause/effect relationship of consciousness.  As it stands right now the different theories regarding copying of the brain isn't even a medical possibility at this point. 

I like these topics!

If every single part of the brain was mapped perfectly to another person's, then theoretically they would be identical to another person's personality. However, this doesn't necessarily mean that the "cloned" person is the same as the original. We are comprised of our experiences, which are then interpreted and logged into our brain. As soon as this "cloned" person has an experience differentiating from the original, he or she is no longer the clone of that person (which would be almost instantaneous, considering the very idea of being a clone as a novel idea that would change the circuitry of the neural network). In reality, who we are changes on a constant and daily basis. We aren't the person who were were a few years ago, and yet we are.

For example, take a candle to represent a human being. It's life is defined by how long it stays lit, and the wax drippings could be the physical recording of its experience (such as the specific arrangement of neurons in a human's brain). What you're proposing is to take those same wax drippings and reheat them back into the candle's original mold. Based on the size and shape of the candle it would burn more or less the same way it had before. However, due to changes in pressure in the room, temperature, and variations of wind would all cause different formations of wax drippings to form around the candle, akin to new "experiences" it's being subjected to.

I guess my answer would be both yes and no. Yes, you could have exact copies of a brain and say that both hold the exact same personality in each. But once you allow the brains to become subjected to new experiences, they would no longer be the same person.

The term person is extremely subjective. If you detached someones arm, is the arm the person or is the rest of the body the person? Why is this? The answer depends on what you consider a person.

You are not something. You are billions of somethings working together to produce what appears to be a single entity with a single purpose.

Nothing makes me you, and you me, they are just words to help us communicate. If you removed the head of a hammer in 2005 and got a new head, and then in 2006 you removed the handle and got a new one, is it still considered the same waepon?

It depends, it all depends. Humans just made up things like "you", "person", etc. to make sense of it all. They are just constructs and you aren't meant to look deep into it. That is dangerous thinking Comrade. I hope Goldstein hasn't corrupted your heart.

Quote from: Yankyal on November 09, 2011, 04:59:26 PM
The term person is extremely subjective. If you detached someones arm, is the arm the person or is the rest of the body the person? Why is this? The answer depends on what you consider a person.

You are not something. You are billions of somethings working together to produce what appears to be a single entity with a single purpose.

Nothing makes me you, and you me, they are just words to help us communicate. If you removed the head of a hammer in 2005 and got a new head, and then in 2006 you removed the handle and got a new one, is it still considered the same waepon?

It depends, it all depends. Humans just made up things like "you", "person", etc. to make sense of it all. They are just constructs and you aren't meant to look deep into it. That is dangerous thinking Comrade. I hope Goldstein hasn't corrupted your heart.

I hope you weren't replying to me, because this is more than apparent. Although words can be subjective, I'd hope that you at least understand my intentions when using the words "person" or "you" and "me". I am referring to the collection of brain cells that form our personality and thought processes. It helps to use a little bit of common sense when it comes to general meanings behind words, unless you're the kind of person that assumes someones arm has been cut off every time you hear a person dies on the news.

Although in fairness, "person" can commonly be taken in three ways: Mind or body or both.

I understand if you didn't get my post. Sometimes it's hard to convey my thoughts into words. I'm trying to look at what really forms the individual consciousness. If we die, and the synapses and neurons in our brain quit firing, the energy from them gets transferred elsewhere. Recreating those same exact configurations of neurons and synapses would only make a copy of what I consider to be "me". My question is this, would one have to actually find the energy that dissipated from my body after death to recreate my individual consciousness? Or is the material that comprises our brain not important, but rather it's configuration?

Thanks for posting, Trogdor and Scott, A reply is coming when I get back.

I mean I cant really say for sure until we define

QuoteSo what exactly is consciousness?

So we can set the limits when something has it and when something looses it and more.

Based of what I think (make stuff up time for me) it is if I where able to copy people I would just guess that both of them would be different in consciousness as in they would not think the same things at the same time and do the same things. They would be two different minds that will act interdependently.

If I was able to copy a part of some ones brain and place in that copy instantaneously over the original I would also guess they would be the same consciousness.

If I was able to copy all of the brain and place in that copy instantaneously over the original I would also guess they would be technically a new consciousnesses by what I think but I believe their behavior after words would be the same as if it would have never happened.

Quote from: Jake on November 09, 2011, 07:32:21 PM
I hope you weren't replying to me, because this is more than apparent. Although words can be subjective, I'd hope that you at least understand my intentions when using the words "person" or "you" and "me". I am referring to the collection of brain cells that form our personality and thought processes. It helps to use a little bit of common sense when it comes to general meanings behind words, unless you're the kind of person that assumes someones arm has been cut off every time you hear a person dies on the news.
Although in fairness, "person" can commonly be taken in three ways: Mind or body or both.

I understand if you didn't get my post. Sometimes it's hard to convey my thoughts into words. I'm trying to look at what really forms the individual consciousness. If we die, and the synapses and neurons in our brain quit firing, the energy from them gets transferred elsewhere. Recreating those same exact configurations of neurons and synapses would only make a copy of what I consider to be "me". My question is this, would one have to actually find the energy that dissipated from my body after death to recreate my individual consciousness? Or is the material that comprises our brain not important, but rather it's configuration?

Thanks for posting, Trogdor and Scott, A reply is coming when I get back.

No you would not have to find the energy from the dissipated body. Atoms are identical. I'd say the configuration is what is important, because if the specific atoms are important, then everyone is technically not the same person they were born as.

Quote from: Scotty on November 09, 2011, 04:04:46 PM

Quote from: Jake on November 09, 2011, 03:33:33 PM
What would it take to resurrect someone?

Manual restoration of dead tissue.  As soon as blood stops pumping, tissue begins to decay (well, technically it begins to decay as soon as blood flow is retarded, not when it stops outright).  Decay enough and it fails to function which means death.  Once you can reanimate or restore the dead tissue with live tissue so that it functions again, theoretically you can bring back life.

Problem is, it'd be completely new tissue. Meaning the person that got revived would be completely different than the person that died. Even if the tissue was copied before death, it'd only be a clone of the person that died. That's why I'm trying to figure out exactly what it would require, however physically impossible, to reanimate the same exact person that died, even if it's only theoretical and we have no actual way of doing it yet.

I

Quoten seriousness though, this topic delves into a certain level of neurology that even the world's brightest minds (no pun in intended) have been trying to discover for decades.  Heck, we can't even justify sleep fully when it comes to the brain's natural requirement for it.  I don't imagine anyone here is able to dissect the cause/effect relationship of consciousness.  As it stands right now the different theories regarding copying of the brain isn't even a medical possibility at this point.

Oh yeah, no doubt. My questions are under the the theoretical assumption that we can copy ones brain. Yes, it's completely implausible right now, but important for me to discuss none-the-less.

Quote from: Trogdor on November 09, 2011, 04:11:40 PM
I guess my answer would be both yes and no. Yes, you could have exact copies of a brain and say that both hold the exact same personality in each. But once you allow the brains to become subjected to new experiences, they would no longer be the same person.

I agree with your stance, but lets look at one brain in particular. Lets say we cloned the original brain to be used for parts. Every day, we take a part out of the original brain and replace it with a part from the cloned brain that does the exact same thing. After a long period of time, eventually the original brain would have 100% copied parts. The entire experience would be completely seamless for the person of the original brain, yet at the end, the brain would be completely different. At what point does the original individual cease to exist? Do they even cease to exist or would the individual comprised of the original brain simply occupy a new brain now?

Quote from: Yankyal on November 09, 2011, 09:54:36 PM
No you would not have to find the energy from the dissipated body. Atoms are identical. I'd say the configuration is what is important, because if the specific atoms are important, then everyone is technically not the same person they were born as.

Which is actually possible. You could be a completely different individual than you used to be, but you wouldn't know it because your memory says otherwise. Scary huh?

In fact, our brains could be making new instances of individuals to occupy it every single second, but the current individual wouldn't know because it has access to all the memories before it. During the writing of this paragraph, 50 instances of what I consider to be "me" could have come and gone, and each next instance would never even know. Jesus christ thats terrifying.

Quote from: Jake on November 09, 2011, 10:14:26 PM

Quote from: Yankyal on November 09, 2011, 09:54:36 PM
No you would not have to find the energy from the dissipated body. Atoms are identical. I'd say the configuration is what is important, because if the specific atoms are important, then everyone is technically not the same person they were born as.

Which is actually possible. You could be a completely different individual than you used to be, but you wouldn't know it because your memory says otherwise. Scary huh?

In fact, our brains could be making new instances of individuals to occupy it every single second, but the current individual wouldn't know because it has access to all the memories before it. During the writing of this paragraph, 50 instances of what I consider to be "me" could have come and gone, and each next instance would never even know. Jesus christ thats terrifying.

Look at monozygotic twins for a more visual reference of this. In some cases, they have been found to be near genetically identical. Despite being near clones of each other, the atoms and connections in the brain would create differently at random, causing major differences to form late life and yet next to no differences early life were present. At least, this is what I think you're getting at?

Quote from: T-Rok on November 10, 2011, 12:26:13 AM

Quote from: Jake on November 09, 2011, 10:14:26 PM

Quote from: Yankyal on November 09, 2011, 09:54:36 PM
No you would not have to find the energy from the dissipated body. Atoms are identical. I'd say the configuration is what is important, because if the specific atoms are important, then everyone is technically not the same person they were born as.

Which is actually possible. You could be a completely different individual than you used to be, but you wouldn't know it because your memory says otherwise. Scary huh?

In fact, our brains could be making new instances of individuals to occupy it every single second, but the current individual wouldn't know because it has access to all the memories before it. During the writing of this paragraph, 50 instances of what I consider to be "me" could have come and gone, and each next instance would never even know. Jesus christ thats terrifying.

Look at monozygotic twins for a more visual reference of this. In some cases, they have been found to be near genetically identical. Despite being near clones of each other, the atoms and connections in the brain would create differently at random, causing major differences to form late life and yet next to no differences early life were present. At least, this is what I think you're getting at?

Not in my last post. I was referring to the fact that your mind could essentially be dieing and creating a new you every second and you wouldn't even realize it.

Quote from: Jake on November 09, 2011, 10:07:36 PM

Quote from: Trogdor on November 09, 2011, 04:11:40 PM
I guess my answer would be both yes and no. Yes, you could have exact copies of a brain and say that both hold the exact same personality in each. But once you allow the brains to become subjected to new experiences, they would no longer be the same person.

I agree with your stance, but lets look at one brain in particular. Lets say we cloned the original brain to be used for parts. Every day, we take a part out of the original brain and replace it with a part from the cloned brain that does the exact same thing. After a long period of time, eventually the original brain would have 100% copied parts. The entire experience would be completely seamless for the person of the original brain, yet at the end, the brain would be completely different. At what point does the original individual cease to exist? Do they even cease to exist or would the individual comprised of the original brain simply occupy a new brain now?

If the experience was seamless and unrecognizable to the person having parts of their brain replaced by copies, then I don't see any reason why the exact same neural networks would act any differently.

This actually happens on a daily basis in nature. On average, it takes roughly a year to replace 100% of the atoms in our bodies. In this time we would have an entirely "new" brains. Even though neurons are never replaced, the atoms they're comprised of will eventually be replaced through periodic maintenance. Hell, right at this very moment in time you're not even 100% "you". A whopping 30% of your body weight comes from the colonies of bacteria, viruses, parasites, and other welcome or unwelcome tenants that inhabit our bodies. Even more surprising is that the bacteria living on and in our bodies outnumbers our own cells 10 to 1. If we were going for quantity over quality, we'd become the bacteria on the host that was once ourselves!

I suppose from where the notion of a Self manifests would be the basis of this argument. The way I see it, I believe our Self is simply the product of our own intricate web of neural networks that have been conditioned to react to certain environmental stimuli in more or less the same way. We identify who we are by the frequency of specific neural networks that are being engaged, and then reinforce that behavior in order to cultivate an easily identifiable personality that we can call our own.

Of course, a soul, spirit or other ethereal entity could influence how you act in your physical body. But that's an entirely different discussion.