Pirating.

[Matty_Richo]

Thanks for clarification. I'm still against pirating, however, as it still robs the developers of their money, unless you buy their product eventually.

And that's where the debate comes in, because, you see, it DOESN'T rob them of money, it robs them of theoretical PROFIT.  They aren't LOSING any money as a product of stealing, they just aren't MAKING money.  That's where the line gets really shady, cause now you're robbing them of theoretical money that may or may not have ever existed.

This^^

A lot of people wouldn't have bought the game anyway, if piracy wasn't an option they would have simply not played the game at all. At least this way the game is getting played. And people that wouldn't have played the game otherwise may see how great it is after pirating it that they decide to go ahead and buy the sequel.

[Jake]

Wait a sec... This topic hasn't devolved into an argument over the definition of stealing? Holy shiznat! Now that's a first.

[ARTgames]

so lets define stealing.... :P Yeah I agree that when it goes that way it turns into just a battle of semantics of the word.

[11clock]

Thanks for clarification. I'm still against pirating, however, as it still robs the developers of their money, unless you buy their product eventually.

And that's where the debate comes in, because, you see, it DOESN'T rob them of money, it robs them of theoretical PROFIT.  They aren't LOSING any money as a product of pirating, they just aren't MAKING money.  That's where the line gets really shady, cause now you're robbing them of theoretical money that may or may not have ever existed.

Well I meant that they weren't making money, but they would of got money if the product was purchased. I agree that if it wasn't for piracy, they wouldn't of bought the product anyways, but I still feel that piracy is morally wrong. I'd hate it if people pirated a product I made, that's for sure, especially due to the fact that I'm starting to move towards making money from the gaming market with my higher quality games being worked on. I left Game Maker along with my WiP games that were being made with it to move on to more powerful game development SDKs, and I'm getting into actual coding, starting with Objective C.

[Scotty]

Thanks for clarification. I'm still against pirating, however, as it still robs the developers of their money, unless you buy their product eventually.

And that's where the debate comes in, because, you see, it DOESN'T rob them of money, it robs them of theoretical PROFIT.  They aren't LOSING any money as a product of pirating, they just aren't MAKING money.  That's where the line gets really shady, cause now you're robbing them of theoretical money that may or may not have ever existed.

Well I meant that they weren't making money, but they would of got money if the product was purchased. I agree that if it wasn't for piracy, they wouldn't of bought the product anyways, but I still feel that piracy is morally wrong. I'd hate it if people pirated a product I made, that's for sure, especially due to the fact that I'm starting to move towards making money from the gaming market with my higher quality games being worked on. I left Game Maker along with my WiP games that were being made with it to move on to more powerful game development SDKs, and I'm getting into actual coding, starting with Objective C.

Piracy when it comes to games is two-fold.  One, for indie developers, it helps get exposure.  Sure, it sucks that people are exploiting your hard work, but it gets people's attention.  You have to work around it and know how to give it the best chance at succeeding.  Like Lingus said, steam has really innovated the gaming market in a way that is not only profitable, but deters piracy.  They address the two biggest concerns that players might use as motivation to pirate a game, low cost through deals, and ease of acquisition through one-click download and install.
If Steam isn't a possibility for whatever reason, you have to approach it as Notch did with Minecraft.  Don't be ignorant to the fact that it will get pirated, that's a known fact.  People will pirate your game(s), its best you just accept the reality rather than try to fight it.  People can pirate Minecraft, but there's a good chance now-a-days (not as much as a year ago when it was still in alpha and people wanted to do anything to get their feet wet with the game) that they are pretty much going to be limited to single player if the pirate it.  No respectable Minecraft server is going to allow for people to play with a pirated copy, because they would have to disable the Minecraft authentication, and then people can log in with any username (to include admin accounts) and reek whatever havoc they dream with no real way to prevent it.  On top of that, Notch allows paid subscribers to modify their skins through their website, and maybe a few other nice perks that are otherwise unavailable or a pain in the ass to do with a pirated version.
So instead of freaking out over whether or not people will pirate your game (I promise it will be the former), accept it, make it cheap, easily available, and add in perks that are otherwise unavailable unless people purchase it.  That is how you deter piracy.  It's not that hard.  You won't beat it, but you'll get more money that way.

Oh, and a textbook definition of "fighting piracy" is DRM.  If you do any form of DRM, you are evil.  Don't screw over your customers, you'll lose more purchase with DRM than without it. 

[11clock]

Thanks for clarification. I'm still against pirating, however, as it still robs the developers of their money, unless you buy their product eventually.

And that's where the debate comes in, because, you see, it DOESN'T rob them of money, it robs them of theoretical PROFIT.  They aren't LOSING any money as a product of pirating, they just aren't MAKING money.  That's where the line gets really shady, cause now you're robbing them of theoretical money that may or may not have ever existed.

Well I meant that they weren't making money, but they would of got money if the product was purchased. I agree that if it wasn't for piracy, they wouldn't of bought the product anyways, but I still feel that piracy is morally wrong. I'd hate it if people pirated a product I made, that's for sure, especially due to the fact that I'm starting to move towards making money from the gaming market with my higher quality games being worked on. I left Game Maker along with my WiP games that were being made with it to move on to more powerful game development SDKs, and I'm getting into actual coding, starting with Objective C.

Piracy when it comes to games is two-fold.  One, for indie developers, it helps get exposure.  Sure, it sucks that people are exploiting your hard work, but it gets people's attention.  You have to work around it and know how to give it the best chance at succeeding.  Like Lingus said, steam has really innovated the gaming market in a way that is not only profitable, but deters piracy.  They address the two biggest concerns that players might use as motivation to pirate a game, low cost through deals, and ease of acquisition through one-click download and install.
If Steam isn't a possibility for whatever reason, you have to approach it as Notch did with Minecraft.  Don't be ignorant to the fact that it will get pirated, that's a known fact.  People will pirate your game(s), its best you just accept the reality rather than try to fight it.  People can pirate Minecraft, but there's a good chance now-a-days (not as much as a year ago when it was still in alpha and people wanted to do anything to get their feet wet with the game) that they are pretty much going to be limited to single player if the pirate it.  No respectable Minecraft server is going to allow for people to play with a pirated copy, because they would have to disable the Minecraft authentication, and then people can log in with any username (to include admin accounts) and reek whatever havoc they dream with no real way to prevent it.  On top of that, Notch allows paid subscribers to modify their skins through their website, and maybe a few other nice perks that are otherwise unavailable or a pain in the ass to do with a pirated version.
So instead of freaking out over whether or not people will pirate your game (I promise it will be the former), accept it, make it cheap, easily available, and add in perks that are otherwise unavailable unless people purchase it.  That is how you deter piracy.  It's not that hard.  You won't beat it, but you'll get more money that way.

Oh, and a textbook definition of "fighting piracy" is DRM.  If you do any form of DRM, you are evil.  Don't screw over your customers, you'll lose more purchase with DRM than without it.

Thanks for the info, Scotty. I was thinking of using DRM, but I guess I'll not do that and accept piracy.

[Scotty]

Thanks for clarification. I'm still against pirating, however, as it still robs the developers of their money, unless you buy their product eventually.

And that's where the debate comes in, because, you see, it DOESN'T rob them of money, it robs them of theoretical PROFIT.  They aren't LOSING any money as a product of pirating, they just aren't MAKING money.  That's where the line gets really shady, cause now you're robbing them of theoretical money that may or may not have ever existed.

Well I meant that they weren't making money, but they would of got money if the product was purchased. I agree that if it wasn't for piracy, they wouldn't of bought the product anyways, but I still feel that piracy is morally wrong. I'd hate it if people pirated a product I made, that's for sure, especially due to the fact that I'm starting to move towards making money from the gaming market with my higher quality games being worked on. I left Game Maker along with my WiP games that were being made with it to move on to more powerful game development SDKs, and I'm getting into actual coding, starting with Objective C.

Piracy when it comes to games is two-fold.  One, for indie developers, it helps get exposure.  Sure, it sucks that people are exploiting your hard work, but it gets people's attention.  You have to work around it and know how to give it the best chance at succeeding.  Like Lingus said, steam has really innovated the gaming market in a way that is not only profitable, but deters piracy.  They address the two biggest concerns that players might use as motivation to pirate a game, low cost through deals, and ease of acquisition through one-click download and install.
If Steam isn't a possibility for whatever reason, you have to approach it as Notch did with Minecraft.  Don't be ignorant to the fact that it will get pirated, that's a known fact.  People will pirate your game(s), its best you just accept the reality rather than try to fight it.  People can pirate Minecraft, but there's a good chance now-a-days (not as much as a year ago when it was still in alpha and people wanted to do anything to get their feet wet with the game) that they are pretty much going to be limited to single player if the pirate it.  No respectable Minecraft server is going to allow for people to play with a pirated copy, because they would have to disable the Minecraft authentication, and then people can log in with any username (to include admin accounts) and reek whatever havoc they dream with no real way to prevent it.  On top of that, Notch allows paid subscribers to modify their skins through their website, and maybe a few other nice perks that are otherwise unavailable or a pain in the ass to do with a pirated version.
So instead of freaking out over whether or not people will pirate your game (I promise it will be the former), accept it, make it cheap, easily available, and add in perks that are otherwise unavailable unless people purchase it.  That is how you deter piracy.  It's not that hard.  You won't beat it, but you'll get more money that way.

Oh, and a textbook definition of "fighting piracy" is DRM.  If you do any form of DRM, you are evil.  Don't screw over your customers, you'll lose more purchase with DRM than without it.

Thanks for the info, Scotty. I was thinking of using DRM, but I guess I'll not do that and accept piracy.

I don't mean to put your motivation in the gutter, but we have to be realistic, piracy is going to happen. 

If you put DRM on it, people see that as a challenge, and they'll break it JUST to say they could, then as punishment they'll torrent it to Hell and back to rub it in your face. 

I'm not making that up, look at all the games Bioware has released with DRM, I dare to think that more pirated copies are in existence than purchased copies.  Heck, even the different crackers out there got in a flame war over which one cracked it first the proper way, youtube videos and all.  I think that game was uh... Someone help me out here... It wasn't Dragonage 2... Maybe Splinter Cell?

Regardless, you have to concentrate on deterring it through positive re-enforcement rather than negative.  People will leach on your negative reaction to piracy and piss on your DRM after they rip it out just because they want to make a point (or 3).  Give users a reason to want to buy your games.  Encourage them to buy it, and even throw out a humorous poke or two at the pirates every now and again.  I remember Notch replying to some question someone once had, maybe on Yahoo questions (Chaos would know better, he told me about it) about "Where so and so could pirate Minecraft".  He actually responded saying something along the lines of "You can probably find it on the pirate bay, but I'd much rather you purchase my game."  That kind of zing is exactly what gets people to like you, and more likely to want to support your work rather than rip you off.

[11clock]

Thanks for clarification. I'm still against pirating, however, as it still robs the developers of their money, unless you buy their product eventually.

And that's where the debate comes in, because, you see, it DOESN'T rob them of money, it robs them of theoretical PROFIT.  They aren't LOSING any money as a product of pirating, they just aren't MAKING money.  That's where the line gets really shady, cause now you're robbing them of theoretical money that may or may not have ever existed.

Well I meant that they weren't making money, but they would of got money if the product was purchased. I agree that if it wasn't for piracy, they wouldn't of bought the product anyways, but I still feel that piracy is morally wrong. I'd hate it if people pirated a product I made, that's for sure, especially due to the fact that I'm starting to move towards making money from the gaming market with my higher quality games being worked on. I left Game Maker along with my WiP games that were being made with it to move on to more powerful game development SDKs, and I'm getting into actual coding, starting with Objective C.

Piracy when it comes to games is two-fold.  One, for indie developers, it helps get exposure.  Sure, it sucks that people are exploiting your hard work, but it gets people's attention.  You have to work around it and know how to give it the best chance at succeeding.  Like Lingus said, steam has really innovated the gaming market in a way that is not only profitable, but deters piracy.  They address the two biggest concerns that players might use as motivation to pirate a game, low cost through deals, and ease of acquisition through one-click download and install.
If Steam isn't a possibility for whatever reason, you have to approach it as Notch did with Minecraft.  Don't be ignorant to the fact that it will get pirated, that's a known fact.  People will pirate your game(s), its best you just accept the reality rather than try to fight it.  People can pirate Minecraft, but there's a good chance now-a-days (not as much as a year ago when it was still in alpha and people wanted to do anything to get their feet wet with the game) that they are pretty much going to be limited to single player if the pirate it.  No respectable Minecraft server is going to allow for people to play with a pirated copy, because they would have to disable the Minecraft authentication, and then people can log in with any username (to include admin accounts) and reek whatever havoc they dream with no real way to prevent it.  On top of that, Notch allows paid subscribers to modify their skins through their website, and maybe a few other nice perks that are otherwise unavailable or a pain in the ass to do with a pirated version.
So instead of freaking out over whether or not people will pirate your game (I promise it will be the former), accept it, make it cheap, easily available, and add in perks that are otherwise unavailable unless people purchase it.  That is how you deter piracy.  It's not that hard.  You won't beat it, but you'll get more money that way.

Oh, and a textbook definition of "fighting piracy" is DRM.  If you do any form of DRM, you are evil.  Don't screw over your customers, you'll lose more purchase with DRM than without it.

Thanks for the info, Scotty. I was thinking of using DRM, but I guess I'll not do that and accept piracy.

I don't mean to put your motivation in the gutter, but we have to be realistic, piracy is going to happen. 

If you put DRM on it, people see that as a challenge, and they'll break it JUST to say they could, then as punishment they'll torrent it to Hell and back to rub it in your face. 

I'm not making that up, look at all the games Bioware has released with DRM, I dare to think that more pirated copies are in existence than purchased copies.  Heck, even the different crackers out there got in a flame war over which one cracked it first the proper way, youtube videos and all.  I think that game was uh... Someone help me out here... It wasn't Dragonage 2... Maybe Splinter Cell?

Regardless, you have to concentrate on deterring it through positive re-enforcement rather than negative.  People will leach on your negative reaction to piracy and piss on your DRM after they rip it out just because they want to make a point (or 3).  Give users a reason to want to buy your games.  Encourage them to buy it, and even throw out a humorous poke or two at the pirates every now and again.  I remember Notch replying to some question someone once had, maybe on Yahoo questions (Chaos would know better, he told me about it) about "Where so and so could pirate Minecraft".  He actually responded saying something along the lines of "You can probably find it on the pirate bay, but I'd much rather you purchase my game."  That kind of zing is exactly what gets people to like you, and more likely to want to support your work rather than rip you off.

Did you read my comment? I said I won't use DRM. Thanks for the heads up, though.

[Freeforall]

That new game, Voxatron, already has people pirating it. I don't think you can completely stop it, even if the game cost as low as a penny.

[Yankyal]

Piracy when it comes to games is two-fold.  One, for indie developers, it helps get exposure.  Sure, it sucks that people are exploiting your hard work, but it gets people's attention.  You have to work around it and know how to give it the best chance at succeeding.  Like Lingus said, steam has really innovated the gaming market in a way that is not only profitable, but deters piracy.  They address the two biggest concerns that players might use as motivation to pirate a game, low cost through deals, and ease of acquisition through one-click download and install.
If Steam isn't a possibility for whatever reason, you have to approach it as Notch did with Minecraft.  Don't be ignorant to the fact that it will get pirated, that's a known fact.  People will pirate your game(s), its best you just accept the reality rather than try to fight it.  People can pirate Minecraft, but there's a good chance now-a-days (not as much as a year ago when it was still in alpha and people wanted to do anything to get their feet wet with the game) that they are pretty much going to be limited to single player if the pirate it.  No respectable Minecraft server is going to allow for people to play with a pirated copy, because they would have to disable the Minecraft authentication, and then people can log in with any username (to include admin accounts) and reek whatever havoc they dream with no real way to prevent it.  On top of that, Notch allows paid subscribers to modify their skins through their website, and maybe a few other nice perks that are otherwise unavailable or a pain in the ass to do with a pirated version.
So instead of freaking out over whether or not people will pirate your game (I promise it will be the former), accept it, make it cheap, easily available, and add in perks that are otherwise unavailable unless people purchase it.  That is how you deter piracy.  It's not that hard.  You won't beat it, but you'll get more money that way.

Oh, and a textbook definition of "fighting piracy" is DRM.  If you do any form of DRM, you are evil.  Don't screw over your customers, you'll lose more purchase with DRM than without it.

I've known people who have had to pirate games more than once because the copies they bought wouldn't let them due play to DRM. DRM does nothing, it will always be cracked and all it does is cause companies to lose respect.

[ARTgames]

[Jake]

I've known people who have had to pirate games more than once because the copies they bought wouldn't let them due play to DRM. DRM does nothing, it will always be cracked and all it does is cause companies to lose respect.

Yep. Just bought GTA IV: Episodes from Liberty City, and the DRM has caused the game to be unplayable for me. Thanks for alienating the customer Rockstar! Guess I'll just pirate their game next time.

[Freeforall]

I've known people who have had to pirate games more than once because the copies they bought wouldn't let them due play to DRM. DRM does nothing, it will always be cracked and all it does is cause companies to lose respect.

Yep. Just bought GTA IV: Episodes from Liberty City, and the DRM has caused the game to be unplayable for me. Thanks for alienating the customer Rockstar! Guess I'll just pirate their game next time.

Wait, what happened? Antipiracy? I don't understand..

[Jake]

I've known people who have had to pirate games more than once because the copies they bought wouldn't let them due play to DRM. DRM does nothing, it will always be cracked and all it does is cause companies to lose respect.

Yep. Just bought GTA IV: Episodes from Liberty City, and the DRM has caused the game to be unplayable for me. Thanks for alienating the customer Rockstar! Guess I'll just pirate their game next time.

Wait, what happened? Antipiracy? I don't understand..

Rockstar instituted an anti-piracy measure called DRM into their games. the DRM won't let me activate the game, despite the fact that I have a legit copy. If I pirated the game, I wouldn't have to deal with the DRM.

[Freeforall]

I've known people who have had to pirate games more than once because the copies they bought wouldn't let them due play to DRM. DRM does nothing, it will always be cracked and all it does is cause companies to lose respect.

Yep. Just bought GTA IV: Episodes from Liberty City, and the DRM has caused the game to be unplayable for me. Thanks for alienating the customer Rockstar! Guess I'll just pirate their game next time.

Wait, what happened? Antipiracy? I don't understand..

Rockstar instituted an anti-piracy measure called DRM into their games. the DRM won't let me activate the game, despite the fact that I have a legit copy. If I pirated the game, I wouldn't have to deal with the DRM.

Ah, I see. :/ Sorry bout that.