Group of kids throw a dog off a 50 foot bridge...

[Trogdor]

Why? Why do you consider me selfish for eating something that I can, and essentially need?

I'm not singling you out of the entire human race as a poster child for selfishness. Every human ultimately cares about himself/herself, me included. However, being able to do something does not justify the act. I can murder, steal, etc., but that's no reason to continue it. Lingus has stated many times the proteins and amino acids found in beans and plants fulfill the requirements needed in a person's diet. Truth be told, a hamburger tastes better than a salad. Selfishness stems from why you make the choice between the burger or salad.

If an animal could talk, one that was about to eat me, I'm sure it wouldn't bother if I said I wanted to live more than it wanted to eat me. It wouldn't care.

Of course it wouldn't care, because every waking moment of its life is survival. It will see you as an extension of its time here on Earth, not as a tasty treat to enjoy.

Eating meat is one of those ways - the only reason you are telling me that I shouldn't eat meat is because it ends the animals life... that is how nature works!

You're right, that is how nature works, and it would be completely justifiable if you killed an animal to continue your survival, but let's face it, is this animal's life your only way to continue living? If you were stranded in the wilderness, it would be. While you sit at your computer, sheltered in a house, your survival via consuming food is not threatened in any way. You pick your meals, when you want, how you want, and where you want, and that is NOT how nature works.

Yes - the animals may be grown and raised in a cruel and terrible way, one that I abhor, but I haven't much choice do I? Stopping my consumption of meat isn't so simple.

Of course it's not simple. You've been raised on it and have grown to love its taste and smell. It's a comfort in itself, one hard to give up. I do not blame you for not giving it up, but saying you "need" it is not a viable excuse. It's a choice only you can make.

[Lingus]

Stopping my consumption of meat isn't so simple.

I guess this is the crux of the matter. You keep saying you "need" to eat meat, and I think you mean that you need to eat and you need to get certain nutrients from your food. The easiest way for you to do this is to eat meat. I will not argue that fact. I know first hand that it is quite difficult to be vegetarian and still get all of the required nutrients for a balanced diet. As you mentioned, I do eat meat. Though, if I had my ideal situation I would not. The reason I do now is because it is easier. I'll be the first to admit that high ideals are good in theory, but when it comes to real world practice those ideals sometimes have to be compromised. I try to eat as little meat as possible though, and I choose to only eat certain kinds. And at the same time I realize that being vegetarian, one person who doesn't eat meat, does very little. Most people will continue to eat meat and humans will continue to kill animals regardless of what I do. But it would be really nice if we all put our efforts towards vegetarianism. I think we're getting there. There are plenty more options now than there used to be, but it is still very difficult to eat well as a vegetarian.

But, at the same time I will not agree that we should eat meat just because that's how it works. It doesn't have to work that way.

[Cactuscat222]

Stopping my consumption of meat isn't so simple.

I guess this is the crux of the matter. You keep saying you "need" to eat meat, and I think you mean that you need to eat and you need to get certain nutrients from your food. The easiest way for you to do this is to eat meat. I will not argue that fact. I know first hand that it is quite difficult to be vegetarian and still get all of the required nutrients for a balanced diet. As you mentioned, I do eat meat. Though, if I had my ideal situation I would not. The reason I do now is because it is easier. I'll be the first to admit that high ideals are good in theory, but when it comes to real world practice those ideals sometimes have to be compromised. I try to eat as little meat as possible though, and I choose to only eat certain kinds. And at the same time I realize that being vegetarian, one person who doesn't eat meat, does very little. Most people will continue to eat meat and humans will continue to kill animals regardless of what I do. But it would be really nice if we all put our efforts towards vegetarianism. I think we're getting there. There are plenty more options now than there used to be, but it is still very difficult to eat well as a vegetarian.

But, at the same time I will not agree that we should eat meat just because that's how it works. It doesn't have to work that way.

What you said is entirely the point I was trying to get across. I wasn't trying to say we should eat meat for the sake of it. That is why I kept mentioning we needed to eat, and eating meat is one of those ways.

Perhaps I was being too defensive, but it felt you were calling my moral code into question. I don't feel it is cruel to kill an animal, if we use it.  If that is the way you see it, then that is fine, but I was just stating that I don't believe it to be that.

Yes, should we ever have the opportunity to stop using meat, I would not be opposed. But until the day that it becomes easier to not eat meat, I shall continue with my current lifestyle for already stated reasons.

[DarkBlade325]

Look, if you're going to survive, you're going to have to kill. If you eat meat, you'll be killing cows and chickens. If you're a veggie, you'll be killing plants. Just because they cant scream when you pluck them doesn't change that.

You cannot, I repeat, you CANNOT live death free. You're going to kill something if you want to eat. So to those saying you're a vegetarian because you don't want to kill, well you're killing plants. Infact, sometimes plants can stay alive after you've plucked them from the ground. You're eating a plant alive in that salad of yours. Now doesn't that make you feel like a douche? I think I'd rather eat something that's already dead thanks.

Look, if you like meat, eat meat. If you like meat but don't like killing, then too bad. Suck it up and eat for christ's sake. Weither it's a plant, or something that can actually move around, you're going to kill if you want to eat. I understand people being vegetarians because plants are more plentiful than any other living thing, but what about bugs? Why don't you eat bugs? Those are plentiful. And why do you think we have farms?

[Red October]

If you're a veggie, you'll be killing plants.

You pick the fruit in many cases, you don't kill the whole plant at all. The only exception would be underground plants like Carrots and Potatoes.

[DarkBlade325]

True, but it's kinda hard to live off of fruit it's self. Most of the time people mix fruit with their veggies, ect ect. Much like how people will eat steak with a veggie side of sorts. Not killing as MUCH, but it's still killing mind you.

And imagine if you don't like fruit? What if you're one of those people? Can't just starve yourself.

[Trogdor]

I agree with everything in your post except for a few things.

Look, if you're going to survive, you're going to have to kill. If you eat meat, you'll be killing cows and chickens. If you're a veggie, you'll be killing plants. Just because they cant scream when you pluck them doesn't change that.

Yes, killing a plant is the same as killing an animal. Death is death. However, the suffering generated from killing an animal is far greater than that of a plant. This is the reason why I choose to eat only a plant-based diet, along with the plant's nuts, seeds, etc.

Scientists have actually been able to measure the amount of distress a plant is in while it's being cut. It is a very minute amount, but if you were to hook that same apparatus to an animal it would measure off the scale.

Now doesn't that make you feel like a douche? I think I'd rather eat something that's already dead thanks.

That's your choice, however I would rather eat something that's lived a life never knowing suffering until the moment it is eaten. An animal suffers its whole life up to its death.

You pick the fruit in many cases, you don't kill the whole plant at all. The only exception would be underground plants like Carrots and Potatoes.

I was about to make this argument until I saw RedOctober's reply. Many plants rely on animals to consume them to perpetuate their species through seed distribution.

[DarkBlade325]

Yeah I'm mainly going on about people wanting to live a DEATH FREE life style, which is nearly impossible. Something will always die, weither it feels pain for hours, or minutes, or just seconds.

[Cactuscat222]

An animal suffers its whole life up to its death.

That is based on the assumption that all animals raised for human consumption are raised the same way.

You should also note many thousands of innocent animals are killed each year in the harvesting of wheat and other plant products, specifically from combines. These animals get crushed and torn up, it is terrible, but no one ever brings this up. The amount is obviously smaller than the number of animals killed for human consumption, but the main difference is that these are small animals that get killed brutally, but we don't use them for anything. Whereas, with the animals we slaughter, we actually use. Just thought I would throw this thought up here.

EDIT: I should note too, that obviously we feed a huge amount of grain to animals raised for slaughter as well.

[Lingus]

Look, if you're going to survive, you're going to have to kill. If you eat meat, you'll be killing cows and chickens. If you're a veggie, you'll be killing plants. Just because they cant scream when you pluck them doesn't change that.

You cannot, I repeat, you CANNOT live death free. You're going to kill something if you want to eat. So to those saying you're a vegetarian because you don't want to kill, well you're killing plants. Infact, sometimes plants can stay alive after you've plucked them from the ground. You're eating a plant alive in that salad of yours. Now doesn't that make you feel like a douche? I think I'd rather eat something that's already dead thanks.

Look, if you like meat, eat meat. If you like meat but don't like killing, then too bad. Suck it up and eat for christ's sake. Weither it's a plant, or something that can actually move around, you're going to kill if you want to eat. I understand people being vegetarians because plants are more plentiful than any other living thing, but what about bugs? Why don't you eat bugs? Those are plentiful. And why do you think we have farms?

Oh come on... this is just silly now. Plants don't feel pain. They don't have brains. It's not the same thing. You can go on and on this way. You are killing billions of bacteria right now, just by breathing. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP BREATHING!!! YOU'RE A MASS MURDERER! This line of argument is pretty ridiculous. I know you were trying to make a point, but there's a definite line here. Killing a plant is not the same as killing an animal.

[Trogdor]

That is based on the assumption that all animals raised for human consumption are raised the same way.

You're right, not all farms are factory farms, but the majority of our animals in the USA come from factory farms. This is not an assumption, but a fact.

You should also note many thousands of innocent animals are killed each year in the harvesting of wheat and other plant products, specifically from combines. These animals get crushed and torn up, it is terrible, but no one ever brings this up. The amount is obviously smaller than the number of animals killed for human consumption, but the main difference is that these are small animals that get killed brutally, but we don't use them for anything. Whereas, with the animals we slaughter, we actually use. Just thought I would throw this thought up here.

This is partly why I buy my produce at local farmer's markets, where many of these small farms either couldn't afford or wouldn't need a combine due to their small land size. Obviously insects will still die when harvesting, but, once again, there would be much less suffering than a commercial farm.

You could make the same argument saying washing your hands kills bacteria, which is blatant murder. I'm still selfish enough to kill them for my own health. Even if I were to kill myself to prevent any further suffering, the pro-biotics living in my intestines would die. It really is impossible to live without creating suffering in your wake, but you can control the amount.

[DarkBlade325]

Look, if you're going to survive, you're going to have to kill. If you eat meat, you'll be killing cows and chickens. If you're a veggie, you'll be killing plants. Just because they cant scream when you pluck them doesn't change that.

You cannot, I repeat, you CANNOT live death free. You're going to kill something if you want to eat. So to those saying you're a vegetarian because you don't want to kill, well you're killing plants. Infact, sometimes plants can stay alive after you've plucked them from the ground. You're eating a plant alive in that salad of yours. Now doesn't that make you feel like a douche? I think I'd rather eat something that's already dead thanks.

Look, if you like meat, eat meat. If you like meat but don't like killing, then too bad. Suck it up and eat for christ's sake. Weither it's a plant, or something that can actually move around, you're going to kill if you want to eat. I understand people being vegetarians because plants are more plentiful than any other living thing, but what about bugs? Why don't you eat bugs? Those are plentiful. And why do you think we have farms?

Oh come on... this is just silly now. Plants don't feel pain. They don't have brains. It's not the same thing. You can go on and on this way. You are killing billions of bacteria right now, just by breathing. FOR THE LOVE OF GOD STOP BREATHING!!! YOU'RE A MASS MURDERER! This line of argument is pretty ridiculous. I know you were trying to make a point, but there's a definite line here. Killing a plant is not the same as killing an animal.

Once again, my point flew right over your head, never said that a plant feels pain when It's killed. Yes I did say that a plant can sometimes be alive when plucked and sometimes even when it's put in a salad, but I never said it could feel pain, well not alot anyways. Some people out there are so god damn paranoid that they don't want to kill ANYTHING. However, something will die depending on what you eat, regardless of what it is. A plant will die, an animal will die. No matter if it feels pain or not.

I'm pointing out those out there who are so damn worried about killing something they'd eat shit if there wern't any plants. All I'm saying is that something will die in the end. Get over it, and eat meat if you really want to.

[Scotty]

Ya know what I just realized?  Thank God we have farms and butchers.  I'll be the first one to outright say it.  Thank the almighty lord we have people who are regulating the lives of cows, chickens, turkey's, pigs, deer, etc...  Could you imagine this current scenario with how much meat we consume, and not regulate the animals?  It would seriously be the wild west all over again with the Native American's coming close to killing off the North American Bison!  We'd be out of meat in a year!

Speaking of bison, I was so intrigued at Vons the other day when I was picking up 3 pounds of bacon and 2 pounds of ground sausage for a sausage explosion, when I saw a slab of ground bison meat.  I couldn't believe what I was seeing.  I thought bison were protected animals, so I wasn't expecting to see bison meat!  Anyone ever have some?  I've had lots of different meas before when hunting.  Elk, Venison, Moose, but never bison.  I picked up a thing or two, might make some burgers tomorrow out of them.

[DarkBlade325]

Ya know what I just realized?  Thank God we have farms and butchers.  I'll be the first one to outright say it.  Thank the almighty lord we have people who are regulating the lives of cows, chickens, turkey's, pigs, deer, etc...  Could you imagine this current scenario with how much meat we consume, and not regulate the animals?  It would seriously be the wild west all over again with the Native American's coming close to killing off the North American Bison!  We'd be out of meat in a year!

Speaking of bison, I was so intrigued at Vons the other day when I was picking up 3 pounds of bacon and 2 pounds of ground sausage for a sausage explosion, when I saw a slab of ground bison meat.  I couldn't believe what I was seeing.  I thought bison were protected animals, so I wasn't expecting to see bison meat!  Anyone ever have some?  I've had lots of different meas before when hunting.  Elk, Venison, Moose, but never bison.  I picked up a thing or two, might make some burgers tomorrow out of them.

Now you're making me !@#$ing hungry.

[Scotty]

To coincide with my theory above, lets look at the polar opposite scenario.  Let's say Lingus's ultimate goal is achieved, and we all took on a total state of vegetarianism.  Can we grasp how swiftly we are going to get over-ran by these animals we would normally consume.  Think of it like this.  Every year, back in my home state of Michigan, a certain amount of licenses are sold to hunters to hunt deer.  That number is based off of studies done to determine the over-population of deer, thus regulating how many there are, as to prevent too many from say... Running out in the road and killing drivers, and to also ensure that they don't become endangered.

We've all heard theories of how quickly we humans are going to become over-populated in the world.  Numbers are increasing every second, and dying off at a much lower rate.  Now relate that to animals we would normally consume.  We currently have to regulate them because if we didn't, they would die off.  If we went to total vegetarianism, they would over-run us, and we'd still have to regulate them, by killing them off.  Only now, we're killing to keep us humans alive, not for some practical use like regulating them, and benefiting from the regulation with say, food.