Religion Thread 2.0

[Lingus]

Just because you don't like your choices doesn't mean you don't have them. The whole point of free will is that you can anything regardless of the outcome. It's not about having your decisions guided by the pressure you feel from religion, society, etc... That doesn't mean it's not free will. You can still say eff it and do whatever.

Of course, what Mystery seems to be saying is that free will, in an ideal universe, would be something that made choosing what you want to do easy. But I can argue that in that scenario we're being guided at some level, and regardless of which way you are being guided, towards something you want or away from it, it's as free as you're going to get. The problem I have with that kind of scenario is that a universe with no consequences, one where we can choose to do whatever we want without fear of injury, pain, death, or any negative reaction what-so-ever, is as equally useless as one without free will.

I should point out that this isn't coming from a viewpoint of religion. I'm not religious really. I'm not saying that there needs to be a heaven and hell, or people can't sin without fear of God, or anything like that. I'm really more saying that there needs to be cause and effect. Nothing would make sense without it. If I go around calling everyone bitches, I should get slapped in the face. That's just the way it is.

[Mystery]

Just because you don't like your choices doesn't mean you don't have them. The whole point of free will is that you can anything regardless of the outcome. It's not about having your decisions guided by the pressure you feel from religion, society, etc... That doesn't mean it's not free will. You can still say eff it and do whatever.

Yes, free will is a choice. My point was that in the context of that option being given by a supposedly omniscient, omnipotent, all-loving god that it was total bollocks because no loving being would ever give anyone such a horrible choice. As it is with a robber about to shoot you. It's a choice, and you have the option to die, but I'd bet you wouldn't be willing to take that option.

Of course, what Mystery seems to be saying is that free will, in an ideal universe, would be something that made choosing what you want to do easy. But I can argue that in that scenario we're being guided at some level, and regardless of which way you are being guided, towards something you want or away from it, it's as free as you're going to get. The problem I have with that kind of scenario is that a universe with no consequences, one where we can choose to do whatever we want without fear of injury, pain, death, or any negative reaction what-so-ever, is as equally useless as one without free will.

I didn't convey my message well enough then.

It wouldn't necessarily be an easy choice, but the consequences of what would happen(naturally, not with me doing anything, and I make no claims of omnipotence) if bad things(wars, etc.) continued to occur would be made known. People wouldn't want things like that to happen.

I would give people the option to do things like that, but with people knowing the better option is to not hurt each other(and these theoretical people WOULD be able to stop threats nonviolently), they would continue living their lives.

The theoretical universe WOULD have the option to incite hunger and the like in a person if they wanted to, but if humans were given the option to never be able to starve, I should think they would choose to. Normal bad things are still present as ever. The bad things are not gone, people are just not prone to causing them themselves and are very capable of damage control if somehow I allowed a plague to creep over those who didn't want it, or the like.

Here, the bad stuff happens to everyone when they did nothing to deserve it(and I would argue beyond temporary confinement to prevent it from happening again and good correctional therapy, nothing bad should happen to those who do extraordinary bad things, like Pol Pot and the rest of the motley crew). Very bad things. Cruel things. If there was any omnipotent being in the context of the situation, he would be, by definition, allowing those things to happen.

I should point out that this isn't coming from a viewpoint of religion. I'm not religious really. I'm not saying that there needs to be a heaven and hell, or people can't sin without fear of God, or anything like that. I'm really more saying that there needs to be cause and effect. Nothing would make sense without it. If I go around calling everyone bitches, I should get slapped in the face. That's just the way it is.

There does need to be cause and effect. But because this is a good theoretical world, nothing beyond what I said earlier would happen to those who caused something.

It goes without saying that I think the death penalty for someone, unless they WANT it and are making a rational decision, should never be carried out.

[Lingus]

The gist of what you seem to be conveying is that if there's an omnipotent god, it must be a dick to have made the universe the way it is. I think that's potentially one option. Another option would be that the omnipotent god is a loving god, but has more knowledge than we do about events. It would know that by having certain things occur that overall more people will go to heaven, or some such equivilant (in other words, the "god has a plan" theory). And finally, the omnipotent god could just be indifferent.

Of these three possible options, I personally think the indifferent god is the most likely. Most people have this vision of a god sitting up in heaven on his throne, waiting for everyone to show up so he can give them ultra-hugs forever. That, or some kind of insidious being raining fire and brimstone down on the tiny little peons of earth. I really don't even see god as a being. If anything, it is a force.

Ultimately, Mystery, what we're doing when we theorise about god and the universe, we're trying to come up with a way of understanding what is going on around us. So if your scenario of an angry god helps you understand things better, then by all means. Although, if all it does is make you bitter and angry, then I really don't see much point in it. There's plenty of other ways to see the universe. We've only been talking about possibilities that include an omnipotent god. There may also not be a god at all. This is a much better way to look at the world than believing there is some angry god that has it out for us all.

[Mystery]

Another option would be that the omnipotent god is a loving god, but has more knowledge than we do about events. It would know that by having certain things occur that overall more people will go to heaven, or some such equivilant (in other words, the "god has a plan" theory).

Except God makes the rules on who goes to heaven and who doesn't. There isn't any reason why he can't just nix eternal suffering(which he decided to make a special place for and set it to be the 'default' place where people go after death)and let everyone who wants to go to heaven go to heaven. No extraordinary convoluted 'plan', no matter how perfect and divine and how 'good' it may be, changes the fact he is sending people to hell and causing bad things to happen.

And finally, the omnipotent god could just be indifferent.

Yes, that is a possibility. But I personally feel that an indifferent god would've put us in a better situation than the Judeo-Christian god.

Not to mention the things he does which are too nasty and spiteful to really be classified as the work of an indifferent person.

Of these three possible options, I personally think the indifferent god is the most likely. Most people have this vision of a god sitting up in heaven on his throne, waiting for everyone to show up so he can give them ultra-hugs forever. That, or some kind of insidious being raining fire and brimstone down on the tiny little peons of earth. I really don't even see god as a being. If anything, it is a force.

The only reason I talk about this kind of god so much is because it's the one with the most followers. I always prefer thinking of potential 'gods' in other ways.

Ultimately, Mystery, what we're doing when we theorise about god and the universe, we're trying to come up with a way of understanding what is going on around us. So if your scenario of an angry god helps you understand things better, then by all means. Although, if all it does is make you bitter and angry, then I really don't see much point in it. There's plenty of other ways to see the universe. We've only been talking about possibilities that include an omnipotent god. There may also not be a god at all. This is a much better way to look at the world than believing there is some angry god that has it out for us all.

I know that. I don't have any problem with that. I look at the world in many ways.

It's just that I've taken the time to learn as much about the world's religions and beliefs as possible to try to understand other people's point of view. In some cases, I can see why people think they way they do, though I don't agree with them.

But with Christianity in particular, after reading the Bible several times and looking at various scriptures and getting the same exact message each time, I don't see how the God of that religion can be anything but the most wrathful and evil being ever created.

You have to keep in mind that when I first read it, I was 6. I didn't consider myself anything. I was constantly talked to by kids about why I never went to church and they told me a bit about their god and kept prodding me 'to become Christian', beyond that, I didn't know much about the concept of religion as a whole.

When I read it, I couldn't stop crying for the entire night. My mind was churning out confused thoughts like "why would this happen" and so forth. Particularly the part where God tells Noah to build the Ark and then proceeds to wipe out the entire planet. I couldn't see why anyone would like that god, much less worship him for their whole life.

To this day, I STILL don't see why anyone would read the Bible and like it or think "God is good" after finishing it. I know people do, it's just mind-boggling to me. I'd really like someone to try and explain why they like the Bible.

The reason why I hate the god of Christianity so much is because of what the Gospel and Scripture says about him, and because of how he supposedly handled this universe and what it is now.

Conversely, you never see Satan doing anything beyond rebelling for a good reason and making bets with God. All the descriptions that are used to demonize him could easily be attributed to a massive propaganda scheme.

[Lingus]

By the way. I think the Jewish god is more of a dick than the Christian god. A lot of the stuff you're talking about happened in the Old Testament, which in turn is taken from the books of Judaism. Plus there's all sorts of stuff in the Torah and the other Jewish books that are pretty damn awful as well. But, the good thing about Judaism is that there's always interpretation. Depending on the Rabbi you speak with you might get a different interpretation. From what I can tell, for the most part, the literal interpretation is very rarely used. So ultimately, what you have is a religion focused on trying to determine what their holy scripture is trying to tell them about how they should live their lives. Of course, a lot of the stuff in those scriptures are horribly outdated. So you end up with a bunch of rules that eventually people work out loopholes in order to work around.

I dunno. The whole organized religion thing is just sort of pointless. I guess what I don't get here is, if you're so against this view of god, or if it bothers you so much, why not focus on creating a view of the world that is more acceptable? Since the judeo-christian god is one of an infinite number of possibilities, why not just take it for what it's worth and move on? Yes, a lot of people believe in it. Does that have to matter? The number of people that believe in something doesn't change its likelyhood. You know it's not any more likely than any other possibility. You also know that there's no way to prove one way or the other. So in effect, you can choose to disregard that possibility being that it is so unacceptable to you.

[Yankyal]

By the way. I think the Jewish god is more of a dick than the Christian god. A lot of the stuff you're talking about happened in the Old Testament, which in turn is taken from the books of Judaism. Plus there's all sorts of stuff in the Torah and the other Jewish books that are pretty damn awful as well. But, the good thing about Judaism is that there's always interpretation. Depending on the Rabbi you speak with you might get a different interpretation. From what I can tell, for the most part, the literal interpretation is very rarely used. So ultimately, what you have is a religion focused on trying to determine what their holy scripture is trying to tell them about how they should live their lives. Of course, a lot of the stuff in those scriptures are horribly outdated. So you end up with a bunch of rules that eventually people work out loopholes in order to work around.

I dunno. The whole organized religion thing is just sort of pointless. I guess what I don't get here is, if you're so against this view of god, or if it bothers you so much, why not focus on creating a view of the world that is more acceptable? Since the judeo-christian god is one of an infinite number of possibilities, why not just take it for what it's worth and move on? Yes, a lot of people believe in it. Does that have to matter? The number of people that believe in something doesn't change its likelyhood. You know it's not any more likely than any other possibility. You also know that there's no way to prove one way or the other. So in effect, you can choose to disregard that possibility being that it is so unacceptable to you.

Because in some places if "you take it for what it's worth and move on" you are ostracized or even killed.

[Mystery]

A lot of the stuff you're talking about happened in the Old Testament, which in turn is taken from the books of Judaism.

I know that. I have also read the Tanakh several times as well as a good chunk of Jewish scripture.

The problem with thinking Yahweh is as bad as his Christian counterpart is how evolved Judaism is with its interpretations and its people. I think Yahweh is a dick and a horrible being, but nowhere near as much as the Godhead himself.

Despite the Old Testament being taken from Judaism, it plays essentially no part in the religion. Excluding a spattering of mainly ultra-Orthodox Jewish people, practically no Jewish person believes in Hell, only a purification period before entering Heaven, or not entering Heaven if you wish not to(the amount is very proportionally small compared to Christianity and Islam). The Tanakh can also be said to be extremely flawed and horrific if taken literally, even rabbis and the main interpreters say this. I'd STILL say the Christian Bible and Christian scripture is worse than it and Jewish scripture.

But, the good thing about Judaism is that there's always interpretation. Depending on the Rabbi you speak with you might get a different interpretation. From what I can tell, for the most part, the literal interpretation is very rarely used. So ultimately, what you have is a religion focused on trying to determine what their holy scripture is trying to tell them about how they should live their lives. Of course, a lot of the stuff in those scriptures are horribly outdated. So you end up with a bunch of rules that eventually people work out loopholes in order to work around.

I agree wholeheartedly. There is also a bending of what exists to fit the agenda of those who are trying to persuade people of the 'truth' of Judaism, like in the other Abrahamic religions(and pretty much every single religion ever).

I guess what I don't get here is, if you're so against this view of god, or if it bothers you so much, why not focus on creating a view of the world that is more acceptable? Since the judeo-christian god is one of an infinite number of possibilities, why not just take it for what it's worth and move on? Yes, a lot of people believe in it. Does that have to matter?

I do focus on creating a view of the world of the world that is more accessible.

Since the Judeo-Christian god is one of an infinite number of possibilities, I do take it for what it's worth(to say nothing of its value..) and move on.

A lot of people believe in it, and THAT is what matters.

Why?

Because I have to deal with people who constantly try to evangelize me, people in power who are trying to impose Christianity-driven laws in place and SUCCEEDING WITH THE SUPPORT OF THE POPULACE, Christian laws already in place, complete ignorance, people with the inability to think about their religion or religious ways at all (and that winds up affecting others negatively), fundamentalists, rampant anti-intellectualism, people trying to get rid of the separation of church and state, people who think I'm going to burn in hell because I'm atheist and trying to treat my being atheist badly, complete child indoctrination from the VAST majority of the people who are Christian(from those who are fundamentalist to moderate to light), people who completely ignore the negative aspects of their religion, people pushing for the condemnation of an entire sexuality, people who harass non-Christians, people wishing to kill atheists or even wipe them off the face of the planet(and don't tell me plenty of those people don't exist, not even in the USA, because they do), people who blindly defend religiousness, people who don't read into their religion at all, crazy religious-induced crimes, a higher rate of crimes overall(Christianity correlates very much with crime as a whole, in comparison atheists comprise >0.2% of prison cells), people who attribute everything to God blindly, people who thank God for everything while ignoring what people did and what THEY did themselves(those countless graduates who worked their ass off, then thanking their religious figure when religion did diddly-squat towards their success), opposition to progress(I REALLY wish I was born in a time in the future before mankind screws itself over), removal of progress, people who want to forcibly spread their religion across the globe, over-optimism, people who think everything has INHERENT meaning, and those who know the only reason they have their particular religion is because of their parents, but don't bother changing it or looking at other ways of life just because.

And that's only off the top of my head. If I was given time, I could add at least another Microsoft Word page to that.

And like I said,

I couldn't see why anyone would like that god, much less worship him for their whole life.

To this day, I STILL don't see why anyone would read the Bible and like it or think "God is good" after finishing it. I know people do, it's just mind-boggling to me. I'd really like someone to try and explain why they like the Bible.

Or even just God and Jesus themselves. WHY like them when they've done all of these horrible things and when they are completely incompetent at controlling, repairing and constructing a universe? God the Father much more so than Jesus, but although I can't really find that much fault with Jesus, he still was nowhere near a complete saint.

[Lingus]

Well, yea. That's certainly fair to say that you are upset by the people who do those things. I still don't agree that it's wrong to believe in that god. I admit that a lot (a lot) of people that believe in that god do a lot of those horrible things. But trying to get them to change their belief in that god is as wrong as the people who try to get you to change yours. It's not their belief that makes them wrong. It's the negative actions that they take against others. The religion or belief itself is hardly the problem. It's never the problem. It's always the people that twist the belief into horrible actions against others that is the problem.

[Mystery]

Well, yea. That's certainly fair to say that you are upset by the people who do those things. I still don't agree that it's wrong to believe in that god. I admit that a lot (a lot) of people that believe in that god do a lot of those horrible things. But trying to get them to change their belief in that god is as wrong as the people who try to get you to change yours. It's not their belief that makes them wrong. It's the negative actions that they take against others. The religion or belief itself is hardly the problem. It's never the problem. It's always the people that twist the belief into horrible actions against others that is the problem.

I think I'm not conveying my message properly, or you're not getting it.

That wasn't me saying why it's wrong to believe. I don't and can't think it's wrong for anyone to believe anything, that would be wrong in and of itself. I was saying why I had that view of that god and why I deal with that particular version so often in things like debates.

I don't try to get them to change their beliefs in gods. The only thing I want to get them to do is at least think about it a bit, and since they'll eventually get to a point where they'll say they just have to have faith, that's fine, because ultimately that is the point where logic cannot come into play. And since the nature of everything is ultimately existential in that anything is possible, and that from a fully logical perspective, it's impossible to believe in anything of the sort, I view it as kind of a weak and necessary(for some) counterbalance to what is immediately around us.

I'm fine with religion as a theoretical whole and do not wish to see it go away ever, as elimination of a viewpoint is never a good thing.

I, do however, hate everything it's done to our planet as an actual whole and I think it's done more harm than good.

Twisting is certainly the main problem, yes. But it's impossible to ignore the literal things like stoning adulterers or never wearing mixed fibers.

I apologize if I ever came/come across as antitheistic; that is never my goal.

[Lingus]

Fair enough. I feel like we've come to a point in this discussion where we're mainly talking about how you're coming across rather than talking about the topic itself. Plus I think I've made whatever point(s) I've intended to make. So with that in mind, I'll let the discussion continue as it will.

[Scotty]

Bump because this picture is so worth the laugh:

[sayers6]

Bump because this picture is so worth the laugh:

So tempted to print that out a billion times and tagging up WBC with it. I'm so sick of people like that.

[Yankyal]

So tempted to print that out a billion times and tagging up WBC with it. I'm so sick of people like that.

too bad they have several bible scriptures to back up their hatred. the entire old testament is full of it.