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Quote from: Jake on February 02, 2012, 08:58:32 PM

Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 02, 2012, 08:38:11 PM

Quote from: Jake on February 02, 2012, 08:15:52 PM

Quote from: Cactuscat222 on February 02, 2012, 06:15:08 PM
None the less, I still find it silly. I assume when we say a person "stops believing in God", we can also extrapolate that they would then not believe in his existence. If you decide you don't want to believe in God, because he is evil, or isn't 'perfect' for you, or any other personal, superficial reason, then I'd argue you are being intellectually arrogant. In all technicallity, you can believe in God, but disagree with his method and teachings.
I mean, just because something is evil or wrong, doesn't invalidate its existence. So yet again, there is my point - to refuse to believe in a god (ie, disagree with his existence) because he does not fit your personal bill on what a god should be, just isn't logical. There are stronger, more rational reasons to doubt the existence of such a being.

If someone wants me to believe in a God that tortures kids for fun, it wouldn't lead me to believe "Hey, this God isn't perfect, he's actually evil!", instead I'd argue that the likelihood of that God even existing are pretty small. I don't deny that God could be literally anything we imagine, but his chances of being similar to what any specific person on earth thinks he actually is, is pretty low.

If somebody says "God is evil", or "God is all loving", it's safe to say that those are total assumptions, therefore the likelihood that they are true is fairly low. Now, there are logical deductions that we can make about God partly based on how we define him. For example, God is omnipotent. If he's not omnipotent, then he's not what I would call a God. And then from there we can make a list of traits he probably doesn't have by being all powerful. For example, an omnipotent being is not weak, they don't crave ice cream, they don't have human emotion, etc. So when people tell me that a God exists in the sky that strikes people down in anger, or experiences a wide range of emotion just like humans who have something called a brain and brain chemistry, it causes me to logically doubt the likelihoods of their version of Gods existence.

Forgive me, I think I get what you are saying, but I'm not sure I'm making the connection between what you are saying and what I said. Are you disagreeing with my proposed assumption? If I'm being really stupid for not understanding, sorry. >.<

You talk about people lacking belief in God because he's evil, or for other reasons, and say it's intellectually dishonest. I would argue that one can logically doubt the likelihood of someones specific version of God existing, based on what traits that person gives him. Everyone on this planet has a different perception of who God is, whether he can have different emotions, whether he likes gay people, etc. The chances that that persons specific version of God exists is extremely low. If somebody told me God hates babies, I would doubt the version of that Gods existence for two reasons. One, there is an infinite amount of different versions of Gods out there, so the chances of that specific version being correct are pretty low. Two, I don't believe an omnipotent being can hate.

After reading Mystery's post, I'm basically just mimicking what he already said. I'll post it here, because he explained it pretty well.

QuoteI only talked about that because of the fact we are told by those who believe in that God that it is a certain way. They are the only reason any notion of that particular god exists in our universe. If some serious flaws in their 'reasoning'/scripture are revealed that cast their god in a very bad light, it would be reasonable to question their claims of that particular God with those qualities existing. If a god exists, but without those qualities, they were wrong anyway and those of us who are critical thinkers couldn't possibly have ever known a god existed.

Ah okay, fair enough. That I can agree with, but it kind of fits in with what I'm saying. The fact that everyone has their own definition is also part of the my reasoning for saying what I am - you aren't taking in anyone else's or the 'set' idea, just your own.

Though.. hm... I'm having trouble trying to put to words what I want to say.

I might just be being pretentious. I'll have to think about this again.

Quote from: T-Rok on February 02, 2012, 10:33:32 AM
The LDS are taught that nearly everyone goes to heaven. Essentially it's pretty much just murderers and people who have willingly gone to learn, learned all that they could, and then still flat out denied the existence of God that end up in eternal darkness. I am willing to explain more details about this is if you would like cause it's different then what you normally hear.

Can gay people go to heaven?

Also, why do murderers get eternal hell? There is literally nothing someone can do to deserve infinite suffering. Eventually their pain would so greatly outweigh their crime that it would just be sadistic torture. I can not think of a single possible reason that a loving, merciful, caring god would do this to someone.

Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 02, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
This is kind of like what I mentioned above; the Bible says people were created by God to be like God (obviously not to the extent of demigods in many religions, but still pretty powerful) and therefore have free will; unlike God, however, people aren't totally unlimited, nor are they totally perfect. We're still perfectly capable of doing mostly good things, and I think I can say without sounding like some kind of nutcase who thinks he's a god that we're a lot more powerful than we give ourselves (or give God) credit for.

Is there anything that happens that god did not predict? The bible goes on and on about how god has a plan for everyone. If I can't do something that is outside of his plan, then I don't really have free will.

Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 01:17:14 AM

Quote from: T-Rok on February 02, 2012, 10:33:32 AM
The LDS are taught that nearly everyone goes to heaven. Essentially it's pretty much just murderers and people who have willingly gone to learn, learned all that they could, and then still flat out denied the existence of God that end up in eternal darkness. I am willing to explain more details about this is if you would like cause it's different then what you normally hear.

Can gay people go to heaven?

Also, why do murderers get eternal hell? There is literally nothing someone can do to deserve infinite suffering. Eventually their pain would so greatly outweigh their crime that it would just be sadistic torture. I can not think of a single possible reason that a loving, merciful, caring god would do this to someone.

Gay people can indeed go to heaven. I don't recall the exact details, but they do end up in heaven. I do know they have limitations though. This is one of the reasons I don't actively participate in the church. I have many gay friends and it's not fair for them to be limited for something they don't choose to do but are born with. Kind of like how African Americans used to be limited in the old days.

They aren't eternally in hell. Eternal darkness is just the name of it, not a concept. Anyone cast into eternal darkness can repent and move to the Telestial kingdom. This is one of the rare cases you can move upward. If you are on a higher level, you can visit any level that is below you. But you can't go up. People of the Celestial get to see God and Christ, where as people of the Terestial and Telestial only get to see Christ.

Here let me explain the places.

Eternal Darkness, it's the very bottom, also not a part of heaven.
Telestial kingdom, it's the first level of heaven.
Terestial kingdom, it's the second level of heaven.
Celestial kindgom, the third level of heaven but it also has three levels within it.
-1st: Anyone who dies before they are eight. People on this level are given a chance to marry and move to the 3rd level.
-2nd: I honestly don't remember what this one is. But it requires you to be baptized into the church, that much I know.
-3rd and highest: People who live to the best of their abilities in the gospel and are married for eternity in the temple. The people of this level get to create their own world.

I'm pretty sure I'm remembering all this correctly. It's been nearly 6 years since I have actively participated. But I still believe.

Quote from: T-Rok on February 03, 2012, 02:27:09 AM
Gay people can indeed go to heaven. I don't recall the exact details, but they do end up in heaven. I do know they have limitations though. This is one of the reasons I don't actively participate in the church. I have many gay friends and it's not fair for them to be limited for something they don't choose to do but are born with. Kind of like how African Americans used to be limited in the old days.

So you know God is unfairly discriminating but you choose to follow and worship him anyways?

Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 08:44:49 AM

Quote from: T-Rok on February 03, 2012, 02:27:09 AM
Gay people can indeed go to heaven. I don't recall the exact details, but they do end up in heaven. I do know they have limitations though. This is one of the reasons I don't actively participate in the church. I have many gay friends and it's not fair for them to be limited for something they don't choose to do but are born with. Kind of like how African Americans used to be limited in the old days.

So you know God is unfairly discriminating but you choose to follow and worship him anyways?

Haha, nice try good sir. However your word choice does not dignify an answer. I know nothing. It was explained to me once, and the explanation seemed valid, mind you I wasn't listening, I was busy flirting with the girl beside me. ;) I'm pretty sure the only limitation homosexual people have is no third level Celestial. Who knows. Maybe I'm completely wrong and they don't even get that high. :O Wouldn't that be something for you to gripe about, eh? For all I know it's along the same lines as the reason African Americans weren't allowed in the church.

Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 01:17:14 AM

Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 02, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
This is kind of like what I mentioned above; the Bible says people were created by God to be like God (obviously not to the extent of demigods in many religions, but still pretty powerful) and therefore have free will; unlike God, however, people aren't totally unlimited, nor are they totally perfect. We're still perfectly capable of doing mostly good things, and I think I can say without sounding like some kind of nutcase who thinks he's a god that we're a lot more powerful than we give ourselves (or give God) credit for.

Is there anything that happens that god did not predict? The bible goes on and on about how god has a plan for everyone. If I can't do something that is outside of his plan, then I don't really have free will.

Knowing that something's going to happen is not the same as forcing that thing to happen. If someone randomly goes on a killing spree just to screw with God's planning, although it obviously goes against the goal of everyone loving each other and treating each other with respect, God still knew it was gonna happen.

When we make plans for something, we base them on things we can reasonably expect to happen in the future. I suppose it would be the same way for an omniscient god, only he/she/it (since I'm speaking from a general standpoint here) doesn't just reasonably expect things to happen; it KNOWS what will happen. Of course, in the case of the Judeo-Christian God at least, He does occasionally exercise his Godly power to perform miracles and shake things up a bit, but we still have free will as to how we react to the miracles, and He still knows how we'll react.

Pretty much like Sims games: the sims have a puny level of artificial intelligence and can do things without constant input from the player, but on occasion need outside guidance (obviously a lot more in the game than in the real world, since it wouldn't be a game if it wasn't interactive, but hopefully the analogy makes sense)

I don't believe in God myself.  That being said, I would prefer a version of reality in which God is real, some religion is correct, and I go to Hell, I would prefer that to a version of reality where moral relativism is reality.  The idea that any horrible thing can be justified by saying "Right and wrong are not absolute, vary depending on society" scares the hell out of me, it scares me far more than the idea that I'm going to hell.

Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 03, 2012, 12:14:21 PM

Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 01:17:14 AM

Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 02, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
This is kind of like what I mentioned above; the Bible says people were created by God to be like God (obviously not to the extent of demigods in many religions, but still pretty powerful) and therefore have free will; unlike God, however, people aren't totally unlimited, nor are they totally perfect. We're still perfectly capable of doing mostly good things, and I think I can say without sounding like some kind of nutcase who thinks he's a god that we're a lot more powerful than we give ourselves (or give God) credit for.

Is there anything that happens that god did not predict? The bible goes on and on about how god has a plan for everyone. If I can't do something that is outside of his plan, then I don't really have free will.

Knowing that something's going to happen is not the same as forcing that thing to happen. If someone randomly goes on a killing spree just to screw with God's planning, although it obviously goes against the goal of everyone loving each other and treating each other with respect, God still knew it was gonna happen.

When we make plans for something, we base them on things we can reasonably expect to happen in the future. I suppose it would be the same way for an omniscient god, only he/she/it (since I'm speaking from a general standpoint here) doesn't just reasonably expect things to happen; it KNOWS what will happen. Of course, in the case of the Judeo-Christian God at least, He does occasionally exercise his Godly power to perform miracles and shake things up a bit, but we still have free will as to how we react to the miracles, and He still knows how we'll react.

Pretty much like Sims games: the sims have a puny level of artificial intelligence and can do things without constant input from the player, but on occasion need outside guidance (obviously a lot more in the game than in the real world, since it wouldn't be a game if it wasn't interactive, but hopefully the analogy makes sense)

Going on your analogy, here god isn't just the player. He is the programmer as well. He coded the puny level of artificial intelligence in the game and also is the outside guidance. When he created everything he knew exactly how everything would turn out. For example let's say he made me. My brain makes decisions right? However those decisions are based on my brain structure. And that brain structure was decided ultimately by him.

Even if you say our "soul" makes decisions. My soul was made by him too since he made everything. He decided what kind of person I should be and anything I do is a result of how he initially designed my mind/soul.

Quote from: Specialboy on February 03, 2012, 12:48:33 PM
I don't believe in God myself.  That being said, I would prefer a version of reality in which God is real, some religion is correct, and I go to Hell, I would prefer that to a version of reality where moral relativism is reality.  The idea that any horrible thing can be justified by saying "Right and wrong are not absolute, vary depending on society" scares the hell out of me, it scares me far more than the idea that I'm going to hell.

A static, universal, view of morality is much more horrible than a morality that we can base on logic and empathy for others.

i dont know jake ide rather the rules of right and wrong stay the same as they are in the bible ; static and universal. Who knows thousands of years in the future our empathy might skewer based on how were raised and we will value life less or who knows. I think the bible was written by a couple of good people who were years ahead of their time and wanted to promote peace in the future the only way they could see how, lieng. Whether gods real or not or what people take the christian religion as i think its bettered humanity and its veiws and morals are near perfect for me.

Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 04:28:21 PM

Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 03, 2012, 12:14:21 PM

Quote from: Yankyal on February 03, 2012, 01:17:14 AM

Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 02, 2012, 09:49:59 AM
This is kind of like what I mentioned above; the Bible says people were created by God to be like God (obviously not to the extent of demigods in many religions, but still pretty powerful) and therefore have free will; unlike God, however, people aren't totally unlimited, nor are they totally perfect. We're still perfectly capable of doing mostly good things, and I think I can say without sounding like some kind of nutcase who thinks he's a god that we're a lot more powerful than we give ourselves (or give God) credit for.

Is there anything that happens that god did not predict? The bible goes on and on about how god has a plan for everyone. If I can't do something that is outside of his plan, then I don't really have free will.

Knowing that something's going to happen is not the same as forcing that thing to happen. If someone randomly goes on a killing spree just to screw with God's planning, although it obviously goes against the goal of everyone loving each other and treating each other with respect, God still knew it was gonna happen.

When we make plans for something, we base them on things we can reasonably expect to happen in the future. I suppose it would be the same way for an omniscient god, only he/she/it (since I'm speaking from a general standpoint here) doesn't just reasonably expect things to happen; it KNOWS what will happen. Of course, in the case of the Judeo-Christian God at least, He does occasionally exercise his Godly power to perform miracles and shake things up a bit, but we still have free will as to how we react to the miracles, and He still knows how we'll react.

Pretty much like Sims games: the sims have a puny level of artificial intelligence and can do things without constant input from the player, but on occasion need outside guidance (obviously a lot more in the game than in the real world, since it wouldn't be a game if it wasn't interactive, but hopefully the analogy makes sense)

Going on your analogy, here god isn't just the player. He is the programmer as well. He coded the puny level of artificial intelligence in the game and also is the outside guidance. When he created everything he knew exactly how everything would turn out. For example let's say he made me. My brain makes decisions right? However those decisions are based on my brain structure. And that brain structure was decided ultimately by him.

Even if you say our "soul" makes decisions. My soul was made by him too since he made everything. He decided what kind of person I should be and anything I do is a result of how he initially designed my mind/soul.

To be fair, if we weren't created by an intelligent being we'd still be living based entirely on our brain structures, there just wouldn't be someone who knows exactly how those brain structures work and exactly what causes and effects would happen throughout all of time.

Quote from: Jake on February 03, 2012, 07:10:46 PM

Quote from: Specialboy on February 03, 2012, 12:48:33 PM
I don't believe in God myself.  That being said, I would prefer a version of reality in which God is real, some religion is correct, and I go to Hell, I would prefer that to a version of reality where moral relativism is reality.  The idea that any horrible thing can be justified by saying "Right and wrong are not absolute, vary depending on society" scares the hell out of me, it scares me far more than the idea that I'm going to hell.

A static, universal, view of morality is much more horrible than a morality that we can base on logic and empathy for others.

What if said static, universal view IS based on logic and empathy?

Quote from: TANK on February 03, 2012, 08:37:47 PM
i dont know jake ide rather the rules of right and wrong stay the same as they are in the bible ; static and universal. Who knows thousands of years in the future our empathy might skewer based on how were raised and we will value life less or who knows. I think the bible was written by a couple of good people who were years ahead of their time and wanted to promote peace in the future the only way they could see how, lieng. Whether gods real or not or what people take the christian religion as i think its bettered humanity and its veiws and morals are near perfect for me.

Explain why it condones and 'justifies' rape, getting away with crimes, murder, wholesale slaughter, genocide, getting away with crimes if you have power, eternal punishment for finite crimes, blaming the victim in truly horrible crimes, treating women as inferior and wiping out an entire planet. Those are just off the top of my head; there's more than that.

And explain why the God(which is supposedly all that is good and perfect) in that book is the most psychopathic, horrific being I have known to date. Not even the worst fictional ones I can imagine stand up to him. Dormammu is nothing compared to 'the Father'.

Quote from: Hikarikuen on February 03, 2012, 08:50:30 PM

Quote from: Jake on February 03, 2012, 07:10:46 PM

Quote from: Specialboy on February 03, 2012, 12:48:33 PM
I don't believe in God myself.  That being said, I would prefer a version of reality in which God is real, some religion is correct, and I go to Hell, I would prefer that to a version of reality where moral relativism is reality.  The idea that any horrible thing can be justified by saying "Right and wrong are not absolute, vary depending on society" scares the hell out of me, it scares me far more than the idea that I'm going to hell.

A static, universal, view of morality is much more horrible than a morality that we can base on logic and empathy for others.

What if said static, universal view IS based on logic and empathy?

If it was static, it would become irrelevant. Society changes, morality has to adapt.

Quote from: Mystery on February 03, 2012, 08:52:00 PM

Quote from: TANK on February 03, 2012, 08:37:47 PM
i dont know jake ide rather the rules of right and wrong stay the same as they are in the bible ; static and universal. Who knows thousands of years in the future our empathy might skewer based on how were raised and we will value life less or who knows. I think the bible was written by a couple of good people who were years ahead of their time and wanted to promote peace in the future the only way they could see how, lieng. Whether gods real or not or what people take the christian religion as i think its bettered humanity and its veiws and morals are near perfect for me.

Explain why it condones and 'justifies' rape, getting away with crimes, murder, wholesale slaughter, genocide, getting away with crimes if you have power, eternal punishment for finite crimes, blaming the victim in truly horrible crimes, treating women as inferior and wiping out an entire planet. Those are just off the top of my head; there's more than that.

And explain why the God(which is supposedly all that is good and perfect) in that book is the most psychopathic, horrific being I have known to date. Not even the worst fictional ones I can imagine stand up to him. Dormammu is nothing compared to 'the Father'.

Im not sure about rape and getting away with crimes are anywhere in the bible besides the whole repenting jazz, which i dont think should make you forgiven just maybe clear you're conscience. Although i do understand the treating women as inferior because thats how things were back then and i never said it was perfect. Through all the stories my dad has told me from the bible ive never ran into any talking about rape and wiping out the entire planet . Most of the ones he would tell me about had to do with jesus walking around curing diseases, teaching moral lessons, and how god unleashed plague and sickness onto the world because the first humans adam and eve fell to greed and !@#$ed wit his apple tree. Ive never heard of storys promoting rape and that shit but if you could find them in there and write them here it would be interesting to read and ide shut my trap.

Also im not so sure god is a perfect being, but there is lots of good in the world and lots of bad. Maybe he cant control what he set in motion, who the !@#$ knows how it works you guys just cant assume everythings set out and predicted.

Personally I am Agnostic-Atheist, between Atheism and Deism because well, I feel that all religion relative to worship of a deity is empty. Probably the most well known book out there, the Bible, is seen as the words of a deity through the mankind in which it created, for the mankind it created, so that they can understand it, because well aparently just letting them all known instantly is no fun or something. I am made to go to church every Sunday, with my family who knows of my position on religion, because they feel that somehow, someway, their god with change me to believe in him. As for me, I'm set in my own religious view, because every time I've heard of it, it seems to me just like a book, a story told through generations like the Harry Potter books. A nice tale of wonder and things that we in our lives, have not and most likely will not see, ever.  But the reality this book has made is a bit of a double edged sword. It's brought upon unity of some people, and has helped people find something that they can use as a peaceful grouding agent for themselves. But other than that, if you look into the history of things, perfect example being the Crusaders, Hundreds of thousands of people were murdered over religion. It blinds people to logic at times, and creates some really kind, but ignorant people.

Heres a little personal story. My dad decided "Hey, I'm going to try to convert my son by talking to him about religion in a debate." The conversation was going on, and I had put up a very established and valid defence together versus his reasoning, and then I posed question's that occur from the actual bibles story itself. I said,"Okay dad, well can you admit that time is told by the rotations of the earth on its axis as it travels around the suns gravitational pull?" He said, "Yes, that is true". I then replied "Well lets go to the begining dad. If god created the earth in 7 days, and didn't create the sun until the 4th day if im not mistaken, how was it possible to determine the exact time for the previous days, if the sun had not come into creation until that 4th day?" And you know his reply? It was "Well he's god, so of course he knew." You can see how irrational that assumption is. And in the end, he completely failed and got to the point where he himself told me that I would go to hell for not believing, which I really didn't care due to my disbelief in it anyways lol.

Anyways, this has all been buildup to as why I wouldn't believe in a deity but, as to being agnostic, I do not deny the possibility of one. But it being a personal deity is completely out of my recognition. I think that if there is a god, its one that does not have anything to deal with us at all, and we are just here to be here. Collecting fragments of information playing out our own lifes as we see fit. We've established society as it is based off not just religious principles, but common sense.

Ex.If one person takes another person out of the group,say murders the person, the group naturally reacts in a couple ways. 1. Works harder as to not be seen as dead weight to be the next murder. 2. Panic's and runs, causing less work effort overall. 3. Attacks the person whom did the murder in order to get revenged, say if they are close, or out of self defense due to the fact that our basic upon basic trait is the one of survival.  Whats this say about morality for murder? It says that we have choices. If you don't want it to happen well hell, don't do it and none of that shet happens, and everybody is cool. If you do, well that's whats gonna happen. We can say "Oh well my god's commandments say I shouldn't do this or shouldn't do that" but its the choices of people that determines their actions, and what we would classify as their morals. What that bible of yours will do, is just change the way you think about how that action will effect you. If you believe in it, you'll probably  say "That's what it said, so I'm gonna do what it said." That's a influence of your beliefs. You choose based off what you Believe. Just because you believe it, doesn't make it any more true. If you say its because "god made it that way", well get out, because that sounds just like "they made me do it". Just another excuse.

~Sorry if anybody is offended by this. I only kinda read the 7th page, so I'm not aware of the full conversation, but I just put my imput on the matter overall.